The Supreme Court just ruled that Trump’s attempted legislative coup (the fake electors) was completely illegal. They ruled that state legislators don’t have the final say on elections (so can’t just send a second set of electors), courts do, and courts can strike down or overrule laws or rules legislators put in effect. This kills the “independent state legislation” theory. This decision also declared your state, N Carolina, must let the court review and approve redistributing maps (meaning Republicans can’t gerrymander there anymore and will lose more political power).
Not good for his Georgia trial where his defense was the legislature had the ultimate power to decide elections unbound by votes…now there’s no defense…again.


They also declared Alabama’s districting maps blatantly racist and illegal, and started looking At Louisiana when they ruled. Both redistricted illegally in order to minimize the power of their huge minority populations for 2020 and 2022 elections, blatantly violating voting rights laws. Now it sounds like two more democrats will be seated from new districts in Alabama and Louisiana, and more will likely win elections in 24 with the playing field slightly less prejudiced. You guys were cheating hard all over the South and still losing, the next election may be Republican’s last. Libertarianism is becoming more popular! 🤦‍♂️ 😂 thanks Trump.

D’oh! Sounds like he just admitted to making copies of classified documents/“different plans” in a recent Fox digital interview. He says “what was said was absolutely fine and very perfectly”.

Oh no!!!

If you haven’t noticed, I’m not Bob. I decide my positions on my own, and while I’m socially liberal, that doesn’t mean I agree with the “liberal” positions at all times. I’m not insulted at my position being called “conservative”….I’m not tribalistic that way.

EG-I’m pro gun….but very pro regulation.

I’m actually a fiscal conservative, but unlike the right I know that doesn’t really mean the government should only pay for the military and nothing more. I agree with any spending that saves billions or trillions overall, even when it means some people get a free ride.
I think police are a good idea, although I believe they need serious reforms because they have lost their mission completely.
I think public roads are a good thing, as are public water and power systems.
I think national health care is a no brainer that works well in almost every country and saves trillions per year.
I think a safety net is a good idea...give people something to lose so they don’t turn to crime because they have nothing to lose.

Edit: I’ve said most of my adult life that I would be a Republican if only they would. Today’s Con has no resemblance to the Republican party I thought I grew up with (my entire family was hard core R).
Fiscal sanity, gone. Caring about the environment, gone. Supporting facts and science, gone. Supporting small government, gone (except with lip service). Strong and enforced gun regulations to protect gun ownership rights, gone. Strict supporters of law and order, not anymore. Government out of private life, so incredibly gone. Separation of church and state, gone. Fans of democracy, gone. Honesty, not even a memory.
I’m only a “blue liberal” by default. I might be libertarian if they weren’t crazed anti government extremists and almost MAGA.
Dems are the only ones left that really believe in democratic government.


I agree that 40 years+ without parole is cruel, but certainly not unusual or excessive. I never understand why excessively long prison sentences are considered less than the death penalty…I’m claustrophobic, to me it would be 40+ years of panic. I would give myself the death penalty fairly quickly because I’m not brave enough to face that. Swallow my tongue or bite it off, either works just fine and can’t be stopped. I’m really shocked that’s not the norm, but I’ve (clearly) never had to face it.

Poor bob. A wonderful libertarian information clearinghouse hasn’t become a home for right wing nonsense, lies, and propaganda. Tragic!

Still talking about Hunter Biden, eh? You still have nothing better? Another Benghazi nothing burger with fries….something fake to keep you mad at the right person. There’s zero credible evidence on that laptop, no evidence it ever belonged to Hunter, at best there’s evidence someone who hacked his email account at the same time the Russians hacked Clinton and the DNC created it, adding tons of fake information, photoshopped photos, fake and doctored emails, etc. Because the right had possession of it, and tampered with the contents for 9 months before “turning it over” (to Giuliani?), it’s nothing. Like a piece of evidence allegedly taken from a crime scene, washed, dipped in blood, exposed to close range gun fire, wiped with dna, tested at a filthy unaccredited lab with zero anti-cross contamination protocols, then handed to police and expecting a conviction. Just so stupid.

They don’t “vouch” for the emails….they say there are indications some of them are real….not all. Liars.

So family is fair game….now….but not Trump’s criminal family that undeniably took BILLIONS in bribes from horrific murderous dictators and Trump covered for them, directed his DOJ to not investigate or to just exonerate people like Mohammed bin Salman, even bragging he saved Mohammed’s ass from consequences for the live dismemberment of an American. Far from the only KNOWN bribe, Melania…..Don Jr, Eric, Jared, likely Barron too. Better investigate since this kind of stuff outrages you….but it doesn’t really, now does it? It’s just a crutch you cling to like an emotional support blanket, propaganda.

Oh wow! Right wing media isn’t reliable!? Who knew!? (EVERYBODY KNEW, YOU DUMB SHIT…for decades)

Whine some more, snowflakes. Why not create your own? (Because it would be chock full of insanity from day one, with zero real information or usefulness and you know it).

Way I see it, while Trump is a major contributor to USA Covid-19 deaths, yes, but the MAIN reason is the overly libertarian, short-term economics driven policy and false "human right/freedom" anti-masking rhetoric that caused the rise of the pandemic to the levels countries like the USA & Brazil is at. There are many levels of government, people's behavior and economic factors to blame, not just Trump.

Just calling it the "China virus" doesn't solve the pandemic, nor absolve Trump of blame, he hardly ever tried to get things under control.

All Trump did was letting 0%/low tax paying Wall street mega-corporations profiting handsomely during the pandemic, while the mom & pop main street stores & its staff going under. You know, because MAGA!

I'll be voting Republican for all except Trump. I'd vote Libertarian but that is a wasted vote. I would vote Democrat, but they are hard set on anti gun legislation and I don't agree with some of their fiscal policies. I support abortions and a lot of the rest of the things they are for, but they lose me on gun laws and fiscal policy.

My views really match those of they guy on The Newsroom, the one Jeff Daniels played.

Yes, but not all. I just can't convince my brother in Texas to forego his symbolic libertarian vote this year in favor of saving the country, but my lifelong Republican mother in California is voting for Biden.

Don't count your chickens before they're hatched. Guaranteed this will be the dirtiest, most dishonest, most interfered with by foreign powers, most unfounded October surprises, most rigged election in living memory.
Nothing's guaranteed.
For example, Imagine if some early ballots are found with white powder in them, slowing deliveries further, and 95% of mail in ballots never get delivered....Trump likely wins and blames Antifa. Expect nothing less.

Imo, there are two simple things people can do to help keep mail in ballots from overwhelming the usps....1) don't order packages for delivery after Oct 14 or earlier, and 2) hand deliver your ballot to an official drop box or polling place, making certain to sign wherever necessary.

Listen to Citations Needed history of him...It's pretty good...

https://citationsneeded.libsyn.com/episode-72-john-stossel-libertarian-billionaires-inside-man

@newtboy
@Drachen_Jager
@simonm
@bobknight33

You guys are letting him get away with too many ill defined terms.

@bobknight33 needs to define
Republican-
RHINO (dependant on Republican definition) -
Corrupt-
"Lose" in the political sense (as in "Trump does not back down or lose much")
"Back down" same comment
Swamp

--------------
From my point of view, the definitions would be as follows, but I doubt he would agree, so the definition s actually need to come from him if there's ever to be any REAL communication here.

Republican- Fiscal conservative, functional but minimal government, patriotic and supports the democratic process over communism, law and order, often (but not necessarily) religious

RHINO (dependent on Republican definition) - Ron Paul and Ron Paul Jr. - Libertarians in the thinking of Ayn Rand who actually consider themselves the "true republicans" but are outside the mainstream

Corrupt- Promoting self interest over that of the people you are meant to govern - in Trump's case, I'd say it means "anyone who doesn't agree with me"

"Lose" in the political sense (as in "Trump does not back down or lose much") - Not passing legislation with any staying power, being defeated in the Legislative Branch after something is passed (See the Affordable Care Act for the opposite example)

not "Back[ing] down" same comment - I'm going to break the law or established political norms


UNTIL WE CAN AGREE ON TERMS, THERE WON'T BE ANY ARGUMENT OF SUBSTANCE BECAUSE YOU SIMPLY WON'T BE TALKING ABOUT THE SAME THINGS

If being in Heaven means being around the people who say they will go, Trump supporters, then Hell is a billion times better. The fact that God doesn't care enough to tell his followers that they are following the literal antichrist system, is telling.

Trump Supporters... They HATE LGBTQIA people. They HATE the needy and the poor. They HATE scientific truth, like climate change. They are filled with HATE for foreigners. They LOVE wealth and inequality. They LOVE greed. They LOVE war. Every Trump supporter is like that. They are all bigoted people.

And when I say all Trump supporters, I mean damn near all the ones I personally know. My family, the people I work with. All evil, bigoted people who thump their chest about how Christian they are, and how anyone who reads the Bible would have to be Republican. Who agree with Jerry Falwell Jr. how those who don't support Trump are immoral. They are all stuck in this evangelical cult of Trump.

The day I see the Love of Christ from Republican Christians in masse, will be a miracle. But every fucking day I have to listen to Fox news near all day every day. I have to listen to listen to provable lies that are being taken as gospel, and having to hear how everyone who isn't supporting Trump is evil and against Christ.

Now you may argue that doesn't represent all Christians. But that clearly represents the vast majority of those who care to vote, and certainly of the kids in this video.

Also I wouldn't say I was a cultural Christian at all. My family was, we went to church once a week. Then I got serious about it. I started watching TBN all the time. Started going to an evangelical church. Blasted Democrats and anybody who wouldn't trust Fox News and Fox News alone (my prior comments as Charon seem to have been purged, but I'd blast evolution, trust only in Fox). I went 3 services a week. I was one of those people who'd make sure I said "Merry Christmas" just to be sure people got the message. As I've said before, the initial moment was realizing that the GOP was becoming more and more like the antichrist, and that it was the polar opposite of what Christ himself would want. I became a Libertarian, backed off the 3 services a week to just one, mostly in search of a church that wasn't practically telling people that Republican is the only way a real Christian could vote. Then in 2008 at the Republican debate when a room full of pro-life Christians started chanting "Let him die! Let him die!" with great enthusiasm, about a guy not having insurance and what should happen to him... that was the catalyst that opened the door to everything being so wrong. to say "this... this whole thing is wrong..." And then God did nothing. Christ did nothing. It's gotten a billion times worse since then. Those type of Christians continue to be the main reason people have the same moment where they go... no... and move on. I went, became Pagan for a time, and found it just as connecting to God, at least for those who were serious about it, and empathy says, if they are having just as sincere a relationship with their God as Christians have with God, then it is all equal... and the logic then said, "or not equal, and just as stupid".

Now perhaps I wouldn't be so anti-Christian if I wasn't surrounded by them at work, and having to live with people I'd shit and piss on their grave if their eventual grave wasn't attached to my sister's. Then again, I'd see the news of what these people are doing to this country, fucking it over for profit, and hurting the very people Christ said to help, and doing so in Christ's name... which is the technical definition of using the Lord's name in vain, not just saying something like "Jesus Christ" in exasperation. I do put up with my girlfriend being Christian, though it and her high sex drive are the two things that most drive me nuts... but beggars can't be choosers, and marriage is the only way out of this hell hole of being with my parents at 50 fucking years old... at least until child support goes away...

NOBODY is seeing the love of Christ demonstrated by people like my family, 80-95% of the people at work, Fox, TBN, CBN, 700 Club, Jim Baker, and the like. And they do represent the public image of Christianity. If the moderates and liberal Christians are the majority of Christians, then they don't make their voice known, they don't vote in opposition to these sort of people in this video and on Fox. So either God isn't moving their hearts, they don't care, or God doesn't exist. Even if he does, if my family, Bob, the people I work with, these kids, the other Trump supporters are the main ones there, then I don't want to have to be around them forever, it's bad enough being around them for a short life. Want people to come to God, then start with those sort of people and get them to see how they are doing more harm than good. They have to more at making the world a better place than they do, to leave the world in better shape for centuries to come. Not to take it all for now, not to assume Christ is coming back soon, but always practice he's 50,000 years from coming back... and 1,000 years from now, it's still 50,000 years from then. To act the way Christ said to act, not the greedy fucks that make up the GOP. To actually show the love he showed. He hung out with sinners, and railed against those who were walking around thumping their chest about how holy they are, yet these GOP Christians are thumping their chests, and shunning those who sin differently.

Anyhow I could rant on, but that's enough for now. I do appreciate the higher degree of kindness you tend to show than certain others, and my family... almost all Trump supporters I personally know...

I'll just say Libertarian propaganda.

YouTube channel
Foundation for Economic Education

https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Foundation_for_Economic_Education

What would you recommend for an alternative here? There are inevitably going to be seniors who don't have family available to help them, and who reach a point where they're unable to care for themselves. I can only think of four options at that point:
1) Hope there's a local charity that is willing to take care of them, has adequate funding to do so, and isn't abusive. If this is unregulated there's a high likelihood of abuse occurring, and if it is regulated then you have government involved, which appears to be something you'd oppose. There's also the issue of unequal access - if it's charitable then it's inherently not mandated, so it's nearly certain some people will not have any such charity in their area (see #3).
2) Somehow have private, non-charitable entities handle it? I've no idea how this would work, as any non-charity is pretty much by definition motivated by profit, and a profit motive plus caring for the elderly is certain to lead to abuse (perhaps not in all cases, but I'd expect it to be quite common).
3) Nothing / good luck, oldies.
4) Government intercession.

In this case, a safety net facilitated by the government strikes me as the best of the available options. The problems highlighted in the video seem likely to stem from insufficient oversight and planning. I'd wager that's due to lack of funding, as this is exactly the sort of program which would be seen as a low-risk target when budget cuts come around, at least from an electoral perspective. After all, if the people impacted by this are those who don't already have people in their life who care for and can advocate for them, and being put under guardianship removes their voting rights, then where's the harm to a politician in reducing the funding?

It seems to me that a well-funded guardianship program, with proper oversight in place, would have the best chance of minimizing the suffering of elderly individuals who can no longer care for themselves. I can understand the libertarian preference for minimal governmental interference in the lives of the public, but this strikes me as a case where that simply doesn't work. If you can think of a viable option #5, or can make a case for 1, 2, or 3 being legitimately more helpful than a well-run option #4 (which is clearly NOT what's discussed in the video), I'm absolutely open to considering it. At the same time, implementing #4 in a way which doesn't leave it vulnerable to budgetary volatility is also a not-insignificant challenge.

Damn, I'm procrastinating really well tonight. That was long.

I think you would appreciate this short read, Bob...

https://www.newyorker.com/humor/daily-shouts/l-p-d-libertarian-police-department

@MilkmanDan, excellent points all round.

I'm not a gun owner, and I have no interest in buying one for self-defence, but I have fired guns a few times (at shooting ranges or clay pigeon shoots) and it's an undeniably fun activity. I could also see myself going hunting for food at some point.

Jim Jeffries makes an excellent point in his gun control rant.
"fuck off, I like guns" is actually a reasonable argument. If you like something and you're not harming anyone with it, why should it be taken from you? After all, many "anti-gun" (or more accurately "pro-gun control") people will make the same argument FOR drugs. "I'm just smoking some weed/having a beer in my house. I'm not hurting anyone, just leave me alone".

But the thing is unless you're a hardcore libertarian, almost everyone agrees that there should be some sensible limits on drugs. Even for legal drugs like alcohol, we mandate that you must be a certain age (older than you have to be to buy a gun, which is lunacy to me) and that you can't drive drunk, etc.

The sad thing is, there's near universal agreement on this, even in the US. The vast majority of people are in favour of the kind of simple, common-sense regulations you mention.

It's just that the politicians are in the pocket of the NRA. As one of shooting survivors pointed out "We should change the names of AR-15s to “Marco Rubio” because they are so easy to buy", and I cannot say how much I want to stand up and applaud that epic burn.

"...if I didn't have my friends at church, knowing they are going through the same thing as I am. I'd feel so alone. I'd feel like I'd give up." And so the trap is set, peer pressure to stay in the church and not open their minds and hearts to other options.

This is so far beyond creepy... I mean I get the pledge to stay a virgin until you are married. If that's your wish, then go with it, but this is carrying that well beyond what is reasonable. I'm almost cool with the idea of trying to get the father's approval, though that shouldn't be an absolute, as the girl isn't the father's property. She still should have the right to choose on her own... This is one of the things I don't get about these sort of movements, removal of choice, the key thing that God set up for us, when you force that choice, then you remove it from the person and say God is too weak to convict the person of the wrong choice. It is partly why I moved from Republican to Libertarian because I couldn't deal with the idea of telling people how to live their life, as it made God seem weak, as if He couldn't convict them.

I'd like to hope that even at the height of my evangelical life that I would have found this too creepy. Even when I was in Promise Keepers and traveling great distances to Promise Keepers meetings, and to see Benny Hinn and other evangelical preachers. I fear sometimes I would probably find it creepy but would be willing to dismiss it too easily...

Where's the purity balls for moms and sons? Of course, the woman has no authority in these types of homes.

Libertarianism is for teenagers and idiots.

Any well-adjusted adult with any ability for critical thinking can see how stupid this is. Even his premise is idiotic. The government doesn't use guns to enforce parking violations (for example) they certainly don't use guns to provide healthcare to people. When was the last time a bus driver pointed a gun at you and said, "Get on the bus, it's public transit, cars are illegal now!"

Just because America has a lousy political system and therefore generally a string of bad governments, does not mean government is bad. It just means American government is bad. The countries with the highest levels of citizen happiness, the greatest spread of wealth, the highest education standards, the longest lifespans, the lowest infant mortality rates, the lowest crime rates, all have the kinds of governments Libertarians rail against.

Libertarianism, in summary, is childish, stupid, and immoral. No big surprise @bobknight33 is a fan then.