Thanks for being consistent if not sane or rational…consistently inconsistent.
You say that invariably when it’s a non white victim, but consistently defend the citizen if it’s a right wing white person violently attacking the cops like on Jan 6 or the Bundys….consistently inconsistent.

You consistently justify this hyper escalation to murder for any color except white MAGA color. When you guys murder cops, permanently disable cops, and try to overthrow democracy, you think there should be absolutely zero consequences. Not for stabbing them, beating them, pepper spraying them, trampling them, nothing is bad enough to require prosecution of your group, nothing minor enough that deadly force isn’t required for others. Consistently.

Again, we’ve seen hundreds of innocent victims and bystanders shot in the back, some while sleeping in their own homes, but there’s nothing you won’t excuse deadly force for….unless it’s against a Maggot. Recently police fired dozens of shots into a crowd of unsuspecting victims trying to shoot one man who was unaware of their presence and not fighting or being a danger to anyone, and they shot at least 5 innocent victims. Calling 100% bullshit on “ Don't fuck around with cops and you wont get shot.”, many many victims are shot not fucking around….just last week a kid was shot with a full clip for moving when a cop asked for his ID, a white kid in his parent’s car, not a car thief the cop just assumed he was. This is not abnormal, it happens almost daily. The ex-cop is facing attempted murder and a dozen more charges.

Jan 6 was heavily armed, with bombs, Molotov cocktails, tons of guns (from pistols to AKs, verified by secret service before the coup), knives, spears, gas, pepper spray, fire extinguishers, and literally truckloads more guns staged nearby, some of which was intercepted, the rest blocked from deployment by DC police. You really are intentionally ignorant as fuck, bob. This is proven public knowledge admitted to in court by Trump’s racist militias (proud boys etc).
It was poorly planned by MAGA morons who think themselves great tacticians but are really total incompetents…thank Jebus.

Jan 6 was an attack on democracy by the ex president in an effort to take control of America by force. It cannot be overhyped, and has not been.

Democrats want Trump to run in 24, because it would be a lock for Democrats across the board. He’s a loser, bigly, and would be a loser again. He has no independent votes, and no Bernie boy vote, and the Republican Party has shrunk significantly. Also, he’s clearly committed multiple crimes that invalidates him as a candidate, and will likely be in prison and court for the rest of his life….you can’t lead from solitary.

Trump is a bad joke, a feeble old con man that decimated America, destroyed the robust economy, deferred any infrastructure maintenance, is responsible for over 1 million American deaths by negligence, destroyed any faith in law or validity of the courts, and created a rift between Americans so wide that one party now includes dissolving the American Union as part of their official platform (your party). I know you would vote for him in 24….twice….and still lose….again.
Yes, I would absolutely would vote for Dank Brandon again if the choice is him vS Trump or a Trumpster which is any Republican left. I would much prefer Buttigieg given my druthers.

Now, let’s hear you answer @bcglorf, coward. Hypocrite. Liar. I know what you said for months after she was shot in self defense. I expect you will just slink away again and ignore your own blatant hypocrisy, like normal….but get ready to be asked again and again until you admit your racist hypocrisy.

Less well known [than other paradoxes] is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.—In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

- Karl Popper from The Open Society and Its Enemies [1945]

believe the idea is that all of us do or don't engage in things that we don't necessarily enjoy (or enjoy). either for legality or decency or the stir, it causes...

- breastfeeding
- pistol wearing in town
- hats at weddings/funerals/churches
- shutting off cells at the same and more
- wheels on busy sidewalks
- not heckling the priest's sermon ("YOU SUCK FATHER!")*

some of these are up to the person, some not as bad as others, but common sense SHOULD guide sane people.

'tho if COVID becomes a public health crisis (ala Black Death-esque) they'll find where their freedom meets real oppression (Thyphoid Mary on a large scale).

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/youraba/2020/youraba-april-2020/law-guides-legal-approach-to-pandemic/

personally, the idea that I could end up killing someone quickly replaced my health concerns. if found someone died because wasn't wearing a mask - would kill me.

so, in short, hope any/or all of these blunts find themselves in a situation where their car won't start. and no one will help them 'til them mask up.

"just need a part!"
"not until you observe our policy of public health! here's a mask...and if you'd put on shoes and a shirt..."

bet they'd do it for their f'n car. but for little bobby or old man Thorney?

...hope a camel w/a huge lip blister kisses them straight on the mouth.

reminds me of a song...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFRDimvVimw

testify.



* Bobcat gag

Good thing Keegan Casteel was stopped before he used his AR-15 (missing it's serial numbers) he brought to Chicago along with 5 loaded magazines and a loaded pistol.

All these were noticed by hotel staff staged at the window of his 12th story hotel room overlooking the Lake Michigan shoreline, a heavily crowded area on the July 4th weekend. His rifle had a high powered scope and high powered laser attached, and had a round chambered. He easily could have doubled the number of people shot and killed this weekend all by himself, and seemed to have that in mind.

Oops, but he's a white guy from Iowa, not a black guy from Chicago, @bobknight33, so I'm sure you not only don't think that's a problem but would defend him as a hero of some kind. I'll be quite surprised if it turns out he ISN'T a Trumpster.

The pistol grip firing mechanism for a weapon of that magnitude has me a little worried.
What did you do to our moon!?
Whoops, I was just cleaning it.

Assault weapon bans. Effectively making illegal the most common rifle in the country (ar15) - even though it's statistically tiny in terms of gun killings.
(~450 people killed per year with all forms of rifle. Only some of that is ar15. That's the ~same amount of people as what die yearly from falling out of bed.)

Suppressor bans. Illegalizing an item that has been statistically as good as nonexistent in firearm crimes.

Banning DIY non-commercial firearms. Illegalizing firearms that have been statistically as good as nonexistent in firearm crimes.

Banning Private Sales (aka gunshow loophole). Effectively banning transfers between family and friends. Even though nearly all illegal arms are acquired by straw purchase at conventional stores by girlfriends.
And commercial sellers at gun shows have to do background checks anyways - this is much ado about old geezers trading collectible wild west / ww2 / antique shit.

Nearly all people are killed by pistols. Nobody is calling for a pistol ban. It makes things like an AWB look like a disingenuous effort - because you can pass all sorts of non-pistol-banning gun control laws and there will be no effect on gun death stats. Meaning you can just make more and more stuff illegal forever so long as you save what really matters (pistols) for last.

Between city, county, state, federal, existing gun laws are fat like an encyclopedia. Most people, unless they are 'gun folk', don't even realize the ways you can go to jail. Put a vertical grip in a pistol and posted it to instagram? Enjoy your time with the ATF. 10 years and $100k, assuming you're lax enough to not hire a lawyer to knock it down a bit. Literally volumes of ways to go to jail for shit you wouldn't even imagine would matter.

Many things people complain about aren't even a thing. Like complaining about buying guns online (you can't, not without an FFL involved), or crazy people buying guns (they can't, unless they've yet to be caught doing crazy shit).

Too many laws as it is. Erase a bunch first.

-scheherazade

Likely not.

Wait.
You're saying there's video of him being chased from his gun toting friends by one guy with a pistol? For blocks? And none of his friends helped him at all? That might change my mind completely....but only if they essentially dragged him away, not if he followed along arguing, and if they physically forced him away from his friends, why didn't his friends try to help?

Again, I'll need some evidence of the pepper spray to believe it, because the videos of him running he wasn't acting like a person who had been pepper sprayed, not that it would excuse killing someone else, and I'm assuming the spray came after the first homicide.

(Edit: if the pepper spraying happened, and happened before he shot, then he has zero excuses for any of them. He couldn't see, so had no idea what was happening around him, who threw what, what was thrown, or who he was shooting. You can't see after being pepper sprayed. That makes every shot fired attempted murder of any random person in the area, not self defense. To be self defense, you must know who and what you're defending yourself from. If he was sprayed, he couldn't possibly know, nor could he properly aim.)

A plastic bag mistaken for a Molotov? Not by any American kid, all boys over 7 know what a Molotov looks like from movies and video games, they don't resemble empty plastic bags.

I think you're being biased. I may be too. I'm not excusing any threatening acts by protesters before he killed one, but do excuse any acts committed trying to apprehend him afterwards. (Edit: anything they did at that point would be real self defense, not just in their own minds.)

I can't find any way to excuse him, from going armed looking for trouble to leaving his group where he felt safe to mistaking a harmless object for a deadly one and killing someone out of fear to running away armed to shooting at his pursuers to not reporting it, every act indicates intentional murder and an attempt to escape. He might have had a reason, he may have even feared for his life, but he had no real reason, put himself in the situation that scared him, and opened fire for no GOOD reason.
Children often do things for bad reasons, that's one reason they shouldn't be let loose with firearms unaccompanied, especially not in high stress events like this.
It's not that he had no reason, it's that his reasoning was flawed on all points. He had no legitimate reason, and no legitimate excuse.

Btw, in case you don't recall, I'm not anti gun at all. I am anti armed groups traveling the country intent on killing unarmed people they disagree with, even if those people are being mean and scary, even if they're stealing. If they're committing arson, well maybe, that can be mass murder.

If you find a still live version of him being chased by armed protesters away from his friends, or threatened, I would be interested in seeing them. I find it impossible to envision. It's not that I'm not open to new info, it's only that I've seen none that excuse his killings.

(Edit: I'm looking at it like this....If a 17 year old kid wants to do extreme mountain climbing with little to no training, gets on the mountain and gets panicked and, thinking it will make him safer to have two ropes disconnects his partner's harness and they die, he had a reason, but not a legitimate reason, and not an excuse. This kid wanted to do extreme policing totally untrained, he panicked, people died because of his panicked actions. It's really that simple to me.)

I'll probably vote for Biden, but the rest of my votes have to go Republican for one reason only.

Guns. I am OK with some gun control. But it is clear that no matter what, Democrats will make every attempt they can if they sweep the election to re-do the assault weapon ban, apply punitive taxes to ammo (and possibly guns), and remove the right to private sale.

Bedo was the only one to fully admit it, but Biden has been harsh on guns as well going by comments alone. I don't want Trump back, but I want the Senate to stay Republican to counter gun measures.

I know it's unpopular, but I am one of those people that will never give up my rifles, my pistols, my shotguns, my large capacity clips, and my right to buy as much ammo as I wish without paying another government tax. I also feel I should be able to give or sell my firearms to someone I trust, be it a family member or close friend.

I had one very similar to this one. I would get behind my sisters and shoot into their hair. I still have the bruises from the beating they gave me. I'm sure mine was in the early 60's.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/LUNAR-LAUNCHER-Space-Pistol-Retro-toy-propeller-prop-helicopter-disc-Ray-Gun-/191744899599

I don't know what point you're trying to make. Nothing I said was incorrect. For a gun to fire simunition, it has to have special modifications. Whether the modifications are easy or hard had nothing to do with the point I made, which is that a gun modified to fire simunition can't fire regular ammunition. So if they were using simunition, there is no chance of one of them grabbing the wrong "clip" and accidentally killing someone.

A 40mm LTL round sounds about like a pistol being fired. Here is a video I found doing a quick search.

If you watch the video again, between 23 and 24 seconds you can see a green powder cloud, which looks exactly like this 40mm marking powder grenade, which according to the manufacturer, has an effective range of 5 to 120 feet.

It also has a warning: "This product can expose you to chemicals including Lead Salts and Hexavalent Chromium, which are known to the State of California to cause cancer, and Lead Salts, which are known to the State of California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm."

In most rifles, it only requires swapping the bolt, something a qualified person can do in seconds, in others, the upper receiver, maybe a 1-2 minute job no harder than proper cleaning. Pistol conversion kits are similarly simple.
Don't be fooled that it's some long, difficult process so unlikely for that reason, it's simplistic and fast....and the conversion is just as easily and quickly reversible.

Edit: That didn't sound like an 40mms I've heard, more like a 9mm pistol with a light load. Any kind of 40mm round at that range would be brutal

These are my pistols,
This is my gun,
I say they're for defense,
But they're really for fun.

Machine guns are firearms. You can buy pre 1986 machine guns in the USA (I'm not sure what form you have to fill out). The 1986 cutoff is fairly pointless.

I don't consider bazookas, grenades, mortars, etc. firearms. To me a firearm is essentially a rifle that fires cartridges. But if the US government considers them as firearms then that is what they are for legislative purposes.

I believe there is case law regarding what scope of arms they were referring to in the 2A and the result was any common firearm. This currently includes almost all pistols and rifles, both automatic and semi-automatic (with the exception being automatic guns must have been made before 1986 - I believe this limit should be removed).

I'm very much against restricting semi-automatic rifles. There are no good reasons for restricting them. It is unconstitutional. They are not the "weapon of choice" for mass shootings, pistols are. The lethality of them in mass shootings is the same as that of pistols (someone ran an analysis just recently). This last point surprised me a little.

https://www.reddit.com/r/gunpolitics/comments/d7ypcv/no_mass_shootings_carried_out_with_semiautomatic/

I'm for background checks (i.e. for second hand sales which are the only sales left without a background check) as long as the service is cheap and no records are kept (i.e. it isn't used to create a de-facto registration database).

Public health wise, talking about firearms is a red herring. If I were to drop a bucket load of money into stuff in the USA it would be into making health care and mental health care cheap and available and reducing poverty. This would have more affect on mortality and morbidity rates then any gun legislation will. And yes, I would give fully subsidized health care to the poor.

By now you should be asking yourself what planet someone comes from where they support the 2A and free health care at the same time.

I believe your typical American, no matter their political persuasion, cares about his fellow American. I'm sure you agree that trying to paint either side as demons who don't care is nonsense.

People shouldn't care about what type of guns or the number of guns - there seems to be no correlation between gun ownership rates and homicide rates in the USA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state#/media/File:Gun_Ownership_Related_to_Gun_Violence_by_State_(United_States).sv
g

(the line of best fit would have a positive slope if there was a correlation)

There is a correlation between weapon type and firearm murder - pistols (of all sorts) account for approximately 89% of all firearm murders (where a firearm type is specified in the police report). Rifles (of all sorts) are about 5%. Shotguns (of all sorts) are about 3%.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8.xls

This wiki has better data than you presented - you can isolate gun violence from other violence:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

"Odd, you seem to be saying you're afraid of the violent, gun toting democrats who are 99% more ready and better armed for violent political civil war than Republicans....but you also claim Republicans have all the guns and are better shots and ready to go.....which is it?"

The data says that Republican voters (or those that lean that way) have a firearm ownership rate of double that of Democrats.

If the majority of terrorist attacks in the USA are by right wing terrorists as you suggest, then it seems odd you'd say in the same breath that the left are ready for violent political civil war. If they have less arms and less willingness to engage in violence (which I actually believe is a good thing) then they are hardly "99% more ready and better armed".

The military voted Republican at about twice the rate of voting Democrat at the last election. So the left doesn't have that going for them either.

Reply to multiple previous comments:



Re:
"Literally no different from a pistol other than it can have better accuracy and sometimes higher caliber"

.38 (9mm), .40, .45 are the calibers you will see used by police pistols

.223 (5.56mm), .300, .308, are the calibers you will see used by police rifles

Unless an officer is using a personal firearm at work, the pistols should all be higher caliber.

The major difference is muzzle velocity damage.
The pistol cuts a tunnel the diameter of the [expanded] bullet.
The rifle leaves an exit wound multiple inches across, and at point blank will grenade the exit side of the target, painting the wall with gibs.





Re:
"Can you tell me why you believe it's "not a great idea" when the criminals already all have guns too?"

Because police should be there to protect citizens lives, at the cost of their own if needed. (Hence the "hero"/"Public Servant" status they so like to remind us of)

If they protect their own lives, at the cost of citizens if needed, then they become a part of the problem they are supposed to be solving.

Just imagine the uninvolved bystander down the street struck down for no fault of their own.

The better path forward is full head to toe level 4 body armor for police, not heavier police firepower in packed suburbs.

That way they have the option to hold fire and assess the situation without shitting their pants and hosing the place down with lead "just in case, so they minimize the risk of getting hurt".

Full L4 body armor means that when things like the VT shooting happen, the police don't pitch tents outside and wait for SWAT (who actually has armor) to show up while people are likely getting killed inside.

Full L4 body armor means that when police open a door to a bathroom with an intruder inside (or a vacuum), they don't have to be thinking "kill or be killed".





Re:
"You are assuming it's a high velocity rifle. It's likely only 9mm, meaning minimal impact and penetration"

The video shows shots of the rifle magazine. It's not a 9mm pcc (pistol caliber carbine) magazine. It's the standard form factor. Meaning it is likely to be one of common the off the shelf calibers for that form factor :
.223/5.56
.300 blackout
6.8 spc
.224 valkyrie
6.5 grendel
None are 9mm. And other than a subsonic .300 blackout variant (used with suppressors/silencers), all pack a world more hurt than a 9mm.






It's true that a faster/heavier round will pass through more walls, and more houses.

Not sure it matters though, as 9mm ball will go through plenty of sheetrock layers, and rifle ammo stands a chance at fragmenting on impact with obstacles.
Which goes farther for any given shot will depend on what each one strikes along the way, and if it's bullet is of type FMJ/ball or HP or frag or penetrator or whatever.

-scheherazade