“ my solution would be every able bodied Jewish man and woman join the French (or Polish, Russian, British) army and fucking fight…”

I agree that’s the noble thing to do, but I can’t condemn the ones that choose to seek safety in numbers with Jewish Palestinians as exclusively invasion minded aggressors. My 6 million tag was maybe a bit sharp, but you also know that the Nazi’s took Paris and as much as it sucked to be French or European under Nazi occupation, you also know adding Jewish to that carried a lot of extra consequence and danger to your family.

My POV is agnostic of everything save Isreali people today having a right exist as a nation. Which at this point from my POV leaves 1947 as somewhat academic.

It’s your insistence that Jewish people, and the existence of Israel, have always fundamentally been invaders that I was objecting to as it is so intensely at odds with factual history.

You gave a brief nod on not being a scholar of Palestinian history, but then proceed to just count all Jewish refugees as good as Zionist aggressors from day 1(or close enough), and the local Arab population as nothing but pure, kind caring victims of these invaders.

I will state again, that is ahistorical propaganda and NOT what actually happened. And for my POV, its enough generations back as to be Academic, but for your POV it is fundamental because without being able to writeoff Israel as invaders from day 1, nuance enters the calculus and suddenly the conflict is flooded with shades of grey because lots of parties all contribute to the bloodshed, and many with reasonable motivations from both sides yet too.

Please find me any reputable sources to refute the reality of 1920-1940s Palestine:
-Mass Jewish immigration fleeing European oppression raised tensions between Jewish and Arab Palestinians.(as one must expect)
-Arab palestinians were already chaffing and resisting British colonial rule(as one must expect)
-These tensions led conflict, initially more ‘civil’ with the Arab majority trying to refuse all business, sales and trade with all Jews.
-Escalation followed throughout that time, but in drips and drops and NOT a ‘surprise the Zionist army has arrived’! style of aggression

The violent escalation was a fight here, a beating there. Little individual fights, escalating into deaths. Retaliations slowly grew, with each side exchanging small escalations.

-the culmination of this was eventually all out civil war, and the Jewish side immediately accepting a UN mandated 2 state solution

-this culmination coinciding with the end of WW2 and revelations of the true extent of the holocaust can’t be ignored, it certainly shaped the Jewish mindset in the conflict.

-Their mindset was pretty clearly not inaccurate either, as the immediate response of all neighbouring Arab nations was a declaration of war on the new ‘state’, with bold claims of how quickly the Jews would be swept into the sea. The confidence was so high, a call was sent it for ALL Arab palestinians to abandon and flee the entire region of Palestine to better enable the complete cleansing of the land.

The above is all pretty much inarguably factual, and I’d bargain you could get an Arabic and Israeli scholar together to more or less agree on those facts which is saying alot.

——
Propaganda from both sides would like to declare that the Arabs harboured deep Nazi sympathies, and thus Israel was pure and true in all it did. Or from the other side, more or less your narrative of Zionist bad guys launching invasion from day 1(ish).

Both though are just sprinklings of half truths, with anti-British resentment naturally breeding some leanings towards the axis, and even genuine Nazi cleanse the Jews believers. And absolutely Zionists featured prominently within the Jewish population. Neither of those partial truths though make the propaganda of either side true, but instead just an incomplete and intentionally biased picture.


Again, please find me sources demonstrating I’m terribly wrong on all that, but the only ones I can find are clearly biased and the accurate accounts paint the picture above, the propaganda very, very clearly copies the real story more or less with just deletions of inconvenient bits

Santos has now admitted everything he claimed about himself was an outright lie.
He never worked for the companies he claimed.
He never graduated from anywhere.
His grandparents didn’t flee the holocaust.
His animal rescue charity is a total fraud that never rescued animals.
He was homeless, pennyless, and jobless, then 1 year later somehow loaned his campaign $700000 he claimed he made running a family real estate company that owns no real estate and has no clients.
And don’t forget he’s actually in real life a fugitive from Brazil that stole check books from the elderly invalids his mother cared for and bankrupted them by stealing all their money.
Guaranteed no Republican/MAGgot thinks any of that disqualifies him in any way, but would be absolutely insistent he never be sworn in if it were a Democrat lying about any one of these things.
More MAGA lies and liars, more MAGA criminals. Everyone of you is a liar, every single thing you say is a lie or at best delusional.

Tesla’s down ANOTHER 8% today. Oof.

MAGA Republican Congressman-Elect George Santos caught in even more lies before even being sworn in, he’s in hiding.
Not only did he make up diplomas and work history, claiming to have graduated from and worked at institutions that have never heard of him, not only did he brag about his charity that has no paper trail, no evidence of ever dispersing donations, and never even reported collecting donations (which he almost certainly pocketed, just like Trump did), not only did he forget he’s a criminal fugitive from Brazil where he stole elderly bed bound people’s checkbooks and went on spending sprees before fleeing the country, but he even made up a back story for his grandparents, claiming they were successful Ukrainian Jewish business people who fled the holocaust to Brazil and started over, but records show they were both born in Brazil and never lived in Ukraine.
Every single thing about this man is a lie….he’s so your guy.



Guaranteed Republicans won’t care, won’t investigate, won’t remove him or even punish…truth means nothing to you. Absolutely nothing.

How’s that Tesla investment doing? Down ANOTHER 10% today. Ouch. Sadly PE is still well into the “don’t even think about it” range. Never buy above 25PE, Buffet says don’t buy anything over 15….and NEVER GO ALL IN ON ONE STOCK…..but you know better. Carry on. (Just understand you put all your eggs in one basket AND counted your chickens before they hatched…then someone dropped the basket)

Your bonus- it recently came out that under Trump American life expectancy dropped to the lowest since 96. Hilariously, righty propaganda is trying to ignore the nearing 1.2 million deaths from Covid, 90% of which were preventable with a proper pandemic response according to the CDC, and blame the rise in deaths on the fairly stable number of 100000 deaths from drugs and alcohol per year…because they know your ilk doesn’t understand statistics and will just believe stupid nonsense. So you know, 1.2 million is more than 100000, so has more effect on average lifespans.

Edit: Turns out Santos also isn’t gay. He tried to hide that he was married to a woman until 2019. More MAGA lies.

@newtboy,

And it’s in the origins that I think our disagreement lies. It’s convenient for both the Arab and western worlds to agree that Israel owes it’s existence as a state to Western powers gifting palestine to them as ‘reparations’. That it’s convenient for both parties though is about as far as the truth of it really goes.

As a realist, I don’t see anything going much differently if the west had opposed Jewish settlement in Palestine at the time. The Jewish people were fleeing the anticipated holocaust. In the aftermath of the actual holocaust, it was their own actions of settling in Palestine, and defending themselves once there that made them a state. Nobody gave it to them, they fought and bled for it themselves.

The closest interference of Britain came in trying to wash their hands of Palestine and declaring a 2 state solution, with borders drawn around the territory in Palestine currently occupied by Jewish and Arab populations. I still hold the key to the ongoing problems are not Israel’s declaration of independence accepting that 2 state solution, but instead the entire arab world’s declaration of war on them and intention to drive them “into the sea”. A declaration like that 3 years after the holocaust, towards a population made up largely of holocaust survivors deserves condemnation. I an’t side with the notion that in that conflict, and the immigration leasing up to it, that the European Jewish refugees are the bad guys and aggressors…

LOL, a friend defending a friend as not a racist, LMFHO. From the montages, he's certain NOT an anti-racist. I'll leave it at that.

Whoopi. Not saying she's not ignorant or dealt herself a self-inflicted wound, but I can see how she came to what she said. It's obivous where she's been fighting in the Black vs. White camp, and that fight has been so eternal that who is she to be concerned about Jews' or Asians' (let alone sub divide Asians, into Indians, Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc.?) struggles that much?

Maybe that's why she lazily lumped Jews into White at that moment. She was in a "Black vs. White" mindset. Just like in the pandemic, people (I've seen White AND Black peoples) beat up Asians of all nationality because they think all Asians are Chinese, it's the same parallel. It's EASY to lump a diverse group of peoples into a single entity to focus your anger on.

But isolate the Holocaust into its own context, Whoopi no doubt is sympathetic and not an anti-semite, as she had long been shown for decades.

a few more

http://landmarkhunter.com/photos/61/33/613361-L.jpg

https://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large-5/holocaust-memorial-jc-findley.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/bHPzhX_BHYE/maxresdefault.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bvUo5P-Pilc/UKalbd7Vb9I/AAAAAAAATHw/q0Mr_57f2a0/s1600/Miami+Holocaust+Memorial03.JPG

http://artofmiami.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/IMG_8259.jpg

Am I missing something here? I always thought memorials were supposed to be sad or solemn. To @noims point of humor, I don't see any attempt at humor here. Just a low budget float without an art director.


Speaking of dark humor though, it's not as though the Kawani's are doing their thing with their go carts dressed up as 747 planes pretending to crash into the float.

I ask genuinely, why are the tortured figures in the holocaust memorials not being derided as "celebrating their torture" ?

How is depicting a wounded person different than a wounded building in terms of war memorial creation?
(not the diff btween a building and a person) just the bit about why it's suddenly offensive to show something that was attacked.

They're not "illegal immigrants" if they're refugees. Refugees are leaving another country seeing refuge because they are in danger. It's a legal (hence, not illegal) policy adopted by the united states post WWII because we decided after the fact that we didnt take in enough jewish refugees seeking asylum before the holocaust.

Simply calling these people illegal flies in the face of US law. You, sir, are being anti-American when you falsely claim something is illegal when that is simply not the case.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1225#b



And how exactly is it Biden's fault that there was a crazy hurricane that hit Haiti following a deadly attack on their president?

Lol again with the fake news. Are you pretending to be Trump or whats going on here ?

The Holocaust – between 4 and 17 million deaths (racial motivation)
Holodomor and Soviet famine – between 2.5 and 8 million deaths (political motivation)
European colonisation of the Americas – between 2 and 100 million deaths
Nigerian Civil War – 1 to 3 million deaths (ethnic motivation)
Cambodian Genocide – 1 to 3 million deaths (Communist ideological motivation)
Rwandan genocide of 1994 – 500k to 1 million deaths (ethnic motivation)
Expulsion of Germans after WW2 – 500k to 3 million deaths (ethnic motivation)
Zunghar Genocide – 480 to 600 thousand deaths (ethnic motivation)
Circassian Genocide – 400k to 1.5 million deaths (political and ethnic motivation)
Armenian Genocide – 1.5 million deaths (ethnic and religious (against the Christian minority) motivation)
Decossackisation – 300 to 500 thousand deaths (political and ethnic motivation)
Assyrian genocide – 275 to 750 thousand deaths (ethnic and religious (against the Christian minority) motivation)
Utashe Genocide (aka The Holocaust in Croatia) – 270 to 655 thousand deaths (racial motivation)
Greek Genocide – 200k to 1 million deaths (ethnic and religious (against the Christian minority) motivation)
Darfur Conflict – 178 to 400 thousand deaths (ethnic motivation).

These are the top 15 genocides according to death toll and of these. Christian minorities were actually on the receiving end of three of these genocides.

Another list. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides_by_death_toll

And another one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_by_death_toll


But hey. Facts don't matter for your kind of hate driven keyboard warriors.

rather thought some of the ribs were delicious.

no offense, but there was some 'kill, kill, kill' theme in those treatises.

in defense, learn about the Holocaust at an age most youngsters have just mastered tying their shoes. nix the naiveté or naïveté or naivete?* herr? ['tho didn't finish 'Night', as traveling through that deep of darkness, one could easily fall into the abyss.]

seriously. psycop was cool. me, chill. thee? like a blitzkrieg attack on anyone differing in the least. ya' know? like a culling of anyone un-erring.

no. not down w/pedicide. not see the upside. don't know the movie or actual events. found it questionable to put a person in a minefield and tie it to their freedom - - - is that being bold?

you're a bright guy. wound a tad tight, I'd wager, but on this subject, ya' make me yearn for something easier...like conversion with my Palestine pal or his Serbian side-kick. that was a blast.

or bantering with bob k.

are you on the west coast? hear it's like an oven out there.


BTW: missed Buhhda on a Bun, Allaha on Baba...and other expansions on the theology theme...Zoroaster in alabaster

fun isn't it!

*who was the 'nazi'?

Big assumption. Many Hitler youth made the choice to fight for Germany, and joined on their own before children were being drafted.

As for those that were conscripted, is it your position that draftees are somehow immune from responsibility for murdering their neighbors, women, children, rapes, burning towns, or planting millions of landmines on foreign soil, etc? How convenient for them. I don't believe that's a popular or legal position.

I take responsibility for my actions. If their fate was mine, I would be eternally grateful I was treated so much better than I would have treated them if the tables were turned. I would be part of an invading Nazi army, trying to undo just a tiny bit of the damage we had caused, doing so at the direction of my superiors just like when I caused the situation. I would deserve execution, not release. This assumes I wouldn't have the spine to refuse to be a Nazi and be imprisoned or executed.

If the majority of Germans weren't complicit, the Nazis would have never come to power. You give them far too much credit. From the holocaust encyclopedia- "Opposition to the Nazi regime also arose among a very small number of German youth, some of whom resented mandatory membership in the Hitler Youth." Same with adults, the opposition was a minority by far, not the majority of Germans. Who told you that?

"Survived the fighting"? "Here"? "They"? Please finish your thoughts so they have meaning. You seem to be equating Nazi soldiers with the Jews they tried to eradicate. What?!?

The Geneva convention we know today was ratified in 1949. The accords of 1929 were found to be totally insufficient to protect POWs, civilians, infrastructure, etc. Yes, Germany did appear violate it's vague provisions....so did the allies. That's why it was strengthened in 49.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

What provision of the 1929 version do you claim this violates?

Articles 20, 21, 22, and 23 states that officers and persons of equivalent status who are prisoners of war shall be treated with the regard due their rank and age and provide more details on what that treatment should be.
Or
Articles 27 to 34 covers labour by prisoners of war. Work must fit the rank and health of the prisoners. The work must not be war-related and must be safe work. ("Safe" and "war related" being intentionally vague and unenforceable).
Please explain the specific violation that makes mine removal a "war crime". It's not war related, the war was over, and it's "safe" if done properly.
Since this was done at the direction of German officers, the convention as written then doesn't apply.

Death camp!!! LOL. Now I know you aren't serious.
"The removal was part of a controversial agreement between the German Commander General Georg Lindemann, the Danish Government and the British Armed Forces, under which German soldiers with experience in defusing mines would be in charge of clearing the mine fields.
This makes it a case of German soldiers under German officers and NCOs clearing mines under the agreement of the German commander in Denmark who remained at his post for a month after the surrender - this means Germany accepted that they had responsibility to remove the mines - they just had far too few experienced mine clearance experts and far too many “drafted” mine clearers with no real experience in doing so." So, if it's a war crime, it's one the Germans committed against themselves.

I'm happy to say that anything done to a Nazi soldier is ethical, age notwithstanding. Many Nazi youth were more zealous and violent than their adult counterparts. Removing their DNA from the gene pool would have been ethical, but illegal. Taking their country to create Israel would have been ethical, but didn't happen.

At the time, there were few mechanical means of mine removal, they didn't work on wet ground, they required a tank and that the area be pre-cleared of anti tank mines, they often get stuck on beaches, and had just over a 50% clearance rate, cost $300-$1000 per mine removed, and they were in extremely short supply after the war. The Germans volunteered in this instance. Now, the Mine Ban Treaty gives each state the primary responsibility to clear its own mines, just like this agreement did.

So you know, the film is fiction, not history. Maybe read up on the real history before attacking countries over a fictional story. History isn't nearly as cut and dry as it's presented, neither are war crimes.

True fact: all sales of Mein Kampf originally went to Holocaust survivors through a special fund.

Here's an excellent story about it:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/mein-kampf-royalties-plan-roils-bostons-jews/

One point?!
You mean that point in time between the credits?
It had it's funny moments, but to me it was like a Wes Anderson holocaust movie. Don't misunderstand me, I liked it, but I found it disturbing through and through.

Newt, you've already lost.

You didn't lose with Trump in 2016, but with California's Prop 13 in 1978.

The goal of the Neocon movement was to decimate American public education because they knew that an educated population would never vote for the kind of shit they were selling, and because teachers (being educated and all) were a powerful Democratic voting block. Defunding public education was a win/win for them.

It worked beautifully.

The teacher's unions were starved. Public schooling imploded. We went from the most educated populace in the world to the point where 50% of the population can't find their own country on a map.

Then the real screw-job started with the wealth transfer. Unions were busted, jobs were moved overseas. The safety net that kept millions from abject poverty was dissolved ("welfare queens", "food-stamp cheats"). The Middle Class began to evaporate with about 10% climbing up the ladder and the rest being dumped into the street.

For people like me -- people with high-end skills and a college degree -- that shit worked out great. But people who aren't as lucky? Kinda sucks being them. So they got madder and madder. Luckily, there were dark-skinned people that this rage could be directed at. That good ol' American racism? That shit pays dividends if you play it the right way.

Now you have an increasing number of poorly educated people living in poverty with grievances. Hey, guess what -- we have a new tool to focus all that anger and it's called FOX News! They can show you whose dastardly plan it was to keep your poor, white self down on the farm while those FUCKING LIBERALS live it up in the cities!

Lather, rinse, repeat.

See Newt, people like Bob aren't an anomaly, they're the intended end result of a very well-conceived long-term plan by extraordinarily smart people who understood Chomsky, Orwell and Lasker better than you ever will. Bob is now the norm and you are the exception.

Go ahead and vote in Biden or Warren or even Sanders: it doesn't fucking matter because you can't vote out entrenched stupid. No matter who is sitting at 1600 Penn Ave, Bob is sitting in front of his computer, seething and being stupid. He's not going anywhere. He's not going to see things differently and he's damned well not going to get any smarter.

There's a shit-ton of Bobs in this country and their numbers are growing daily. What're you going to do with them? Put 'em in a camp somewhere? Shoot 'em? You cannot have Bobs and the America you want. That leaves you with exactly two choices: you pick up your gun and shoot them, or you pick up your passport and leave. It's one or the other. You might not like the taste of this shit sandwich, but you're going to eat it whether you like it or not.

Also, you think Bob's a little kooky? Go visit 4chan's /pol/, visit whatever 8chan became, visit the comments section of Zero Hedge, read the comments on FOX's YouTube videos: those motherfuckers make Bob look like a goddamn bastion of rationality. Those people, the ones who're yelling at their screens and pounding out febrile screeds? They're armed. They hate you. They want to kill you. The only reason they haven't is because they haven't reached critical mass yet. Give them a couple of years of post-Covid economic collapse and they'll get there.

I'll never forget the most important lesson a Holocaust Survivor taught me: "The smart Jews left first".

Good luck; see you in Lyon.

I like Bernie, but his answer to "how do we pay for your plans?" seems to always be "We tax the rich more." That seems naive imo.
I agree, the extremely rich should pay way more, but I don't think it's reasonable to say that higher tax rates for the top 5% can pay to revamp our entire society. We are too deep in debt, and too shallow in our commitments towards the public, whether those commitments come in the form of investments in education, health, infrastructure, the legal system, prison reforms, ecology, climate change, .....the list of things we put on the back burner and ignore is long and fraught with perils far more pressing than, let's say a fence, or golf outings, trade wars, or another aircraft carrier.

As to the Castro ridiculousness, get a grip people. I can give you an example of something Hitler did that everyone, including holocaust survivors, can agree was a great thing he did.....he killed Hitler. If your ideological blinders and hatred are so thick you can't admit bad people/systems might also do some good things sometimes, you have a serious problem accepting reality and you need therapy.

With the right British accent you can make the Holocaust sound like a pleasant getaway.