And with the enormity of my apparatus, I might score a hot TSA babe like the one pictured above.

Win, win.

I find it amusing that people seem to think Michael Moore's sucess in making money off his films invalidates the very beliefs he espouses.

I haven't seen Moore's film yet, but I think when he refers to "Capitalism" he's referring to the social and political apparatus that's been built around it as a philosophy, not the mechanics of markets themselves.

If one makes that distinction, I would gladly say that I abhor Capitalism, but think markets are great. I think markets are a valuable tool humans can use to the benefit of humanity. Capitalism seems to be a philosophy built around the premise that a human's only value is in service to a market.

*politics

It is quite simple the solution to the so-called "issue" of health care in the United States. The subject needs little or no banter representative of what can be seen *above, from people who sit at their computers after having ingested newscast, after article, after explanations and solutions by politicians and so-called "experts", who then satisfy themselves that they have a clear picture of how and why the system is in the state that it is.

The country is replete with wind-baggers (see most of the comments above in the "it will be so much better to create a PLAN category) who think they have a clue as to how and why it has reached such a pathetic, critical mass. Watch and read how they take what is promulgated by media and pundits, process the "dis-information" with their tainted apparatus, convinced that one action or the other will create some alternative to the insane state of affairs with regard to the MEDICAL ESTABLISHMENT.

The solution??

Teach people about a healthy way of being. Teach them from infancy, and most importantly, provide them with the raw materials (i.e., diets that are not full of poisons in the form of preservatives, sugars, etc etc), right down to pesticides or whatever one's pet cause for health is. Deny the manufacturers and purveyors of poisons disguised as foods the ability to create human sewage bins, otherwise known as MOST AMERICANS.

-Hobble the fast-food corporations whose criminal intent is akin to manslaughter.
Encourage a collective boycott of all processed, nutrition-less crap by giving people who don't eat the garbage, free health care. None of this can be done without retraining the ignorant masses-THIS INCLUDES PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT WE NEED HEALTH CARE REFORM.

Retrain ignoramuses, and all that the country will need after a couple of generations, are emergency rooms with crack trauma units to patch up the injured. Cancer will disappear. Obesity is the main cause of the dilemma America finds herself in. Diabetes will vanish in those with no genetic predisposition. Stress-related heart problems will fall like a 767 with complete engine failure.

Health care does not need to be reformed. The book of what is edible, nutritious, and real, needs to be re-written. That and the government and television need to be universally ignored.

Need I even mention people who should not be having children, who will grow up fat and ignorant because mankind in her present state is critically dysfunctional; or the undeniable fact that a country to the south of the border of the U.S. is in full-speed sublimation??? Get real, whiners. Use common sense and don't settle for solutions offered, so much Band-aid on an exit wound to the skull.

America would not even need the health care system she has were it not for the putrefaction of human beings by those who profit from collective ill-health. Learn to eat.

Yeah that was clearly hell, just look to the apparatus at the 2:00 mark. I remember this cartoon making a short appearance on The Twilight Zone movie. I can't say I understand the ending though. When being tormented by crossdressing clones just hold out until they reveal themselves?

>> ^bmacs27: without defining the deity, you undermine your own argument. That's why I'm an agnostic. I can't make claims about undefined terms.

But you have made a claim, that for some particular X, P(X) > P(!X). On the basis of that statement, and the assumption that you are rational, I draw the conclusion that you have some concept of what X is, or at least what its consequences are, otherwise you are making a non-sequitur claim.

That is, we experience coherent unitary stream of multi-modal sensation. There is no physical reason for that.

We claim to have this experience, I consider it highly dubious to claim, as a consequence, that it actually has some basis in fact. As for reason, I'm not sure I know what you mean. If you mean no apparatus, I don't think that it can be said with any certainty, given our current working models of the brain, that we lack the hardware. If you mean need, there are many possible reason why we, or any complex organism, might need to be able to act as if it has consciousness, it might be required for, or an artifact of, predictive thought.

Before I can explain further, I'd need to know what you mean by act.

The ability to act is the capacity to intermittently convert one type of energy into another on the basis of some trigger other than the application of convertible energy. For instance, a simple example is an internal combustion engine. If the ignition is engaged, then the engine begins to generate force by converting its fuel into kinetic energy. The engine even responds to its ignition switch, or its fuel tank being empty, and could arguably be said to be "conscious" of these things. I would not venture to suggest that the engine has any apparatus to make decisions, or to attach meaning to its simple senses, but it does, as a system, respond to stimuli in a manner distinct from that of its component parts. Each of the parts is still a billiard ball, the whole does something different, but we are not want to say that this is the consequence of some unseen force or entity.

Granted, I'm able to overcome much larger energy barriers than a single billiard ball, but I'm still running down the free-energy hill, as all physical processes are.

I disagree, you, as a system, are running pulleys and shoots to move things around, you are sinking energy to get both thinking and physical actions done in ways that individual components of you could not.

There is no free energy hill. We don't live in a free energy universe. And we are constantly applying energy against the entropic tendency of our universe. We can apply force to billiard balls to facilitate this process, but billiard balls are not a member of the class of systems which do this themselves.

This is a coke can. Silver stripe and all. He was talking about the smoking apparatus that was used. Verdict: not cocaine; Coca-Cola.

"Oh my gosh, guys. This discussion is beneath me. I've already given my opinion in such a discussion several times. That's why I'm only popping in to tell you that this argument isn't worth my attention. Oh and plus I just want to say this one thing..."

If you're disgusted by "this garbage," why did you even click, read, and comment? The rest of us are doing just fine and enjoying the discussion without you coming in here to congratulate yourself. I'll tell you what kind of garbage I'M tired of.

>> ^Farhad2000:
Not this garbage again.

I have participated in such a discussion 5 times or so on this site alone.

Every time some one comes and says "WELL IF THEY HAD A NUKE AND U HAD 1 GUY U COULD GET INFO IF TORTURE WHAT THEN?!?!"

Never mind that shit never ever ever happened in the real world.

RE:Cheney and CIA memos. LOL! Please 2 memos? Explain why not a single intelligence apparatus of the US refuses to acknowledge Cheney's statements. Not to mention countless reports over the Bush years have shown that the Administration cherry picked CIA intelligence to support their cases. See Curveball intelligence re:Iraq and WMDS.

FAIL. PLEASE TRY AGAIN LATER.

Not this garbage again.

I have participated in such a discussion 5 times or so on this site alone.

Every time some one comes and says "WELL IF THEY HAD A NUKE AND U HAD 1 GUY U COULD GET INFO IF TORTURE WHAT THEN?!?!"

Never mind that shit never ever ever happened in the real world.

RE:Cheney and CIA memos. LOL! Please 2 memos? Explain why not a single intelligence apparatus of the US refuses to acknowledge Cheney's statements. Not to mention countless reports over the Bush years have shown that the Administration cherry picked CIA intelligence to support their cases. See Curveball intelligence re:Iraq and WMDS.

FAIL. PLEASE TRY AGAIN LATER.

The 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on Iran (pdf), the consensus opinion of all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies:
"We judge with high confidence that in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program."

That may be (I don't believe it) but I'm responding to this video where Reza cites the IAEA in 2003.

Citing "U.S. intelligence agencies" doesn't give me a lot of confidence considering they did not in fact know India had nukes (yes they knew they were pursuing them. Germans were pursuing them in WW2. I mean "had nukes" as in they actually had them. Ready to use. It was 1973 when India detonated one to the shock of intelligence communities around the world) .. But of course this is the intelligence apparatus that determined there were WMD's in Iraq.

Shouldn't Israel then as well. Instead of telling the Palestinians what form of existence they should enjoy? I mean honestly you talking about a nation whose power structure was assassinated by the CIA for oil rights brought in a corrupt Shah. Eventually lead to the Islamic revolution. No US dialog has been maintained since. It's like me kicking over someones sand castle and then becoming shocked at their attempt to punch me in the face.

You're changing the whole argument here to something that has nothing to do with this video. Now it's about Israel and Palestine. I know it's America's fault somehow because you mentioned oil and the Shaw. Not sure what is your point though? Does Iran resent and hate us because of the Shaw yet the people in the street now want to engage us and move past that? Bonus points if you can actually make it relate to this video.

Should Israel dial back it's rhetoric of what? That it will defend itself? They are faced with an enemy that is bent on their destruction. Iran. A sovereign state has made it a mandate that they will seek the extinction of this people. That's kind of rude huh? One of the main stumbling blocks for US foreign policy is Israel. Is that because Israel is so fucked up or because there are so many Islamic run regimes that are committed heart and soul to seeing Israel annihilated? Personally, it doesn't matter how you look at it .. they are our allies, and like Britain, Australia, Japan or any of America's trusted friends .. we are bound to defend and support them. It would be a lot easier to turn our back on our allies, but that isn't going to happen.

Is a nuclear armed North Korea? Russia? US? Seems to be alot of tolerance for that there. A state a believe far more willing to put its entire population at nuclear apocalypse.

I actually don't know what that last sentence means. Sorry.
Would the world be better if no one had nukes? Maybe. Will it be better if everyone has nukes? Of course not.

First strike policy is not pursued by any state. Actually, I think that's bullshit. Every nuclear state is trying to develop a first strike plan. We already know such plans exist with "acceptable losses" and such. The good news is M.A.D. has been affective and no one has really figured out an acceptable first strike strategy, yet. The problem is people like money, and what one state uses as a deterrent another emerging state uses as ransom. Iran and other "rogue" states could not actually assure destruction of the US the way the Soviets could during the cold war. So M.A.D. doesn't apply. It's just a threat .. like the Somali pirates. Fear our power. Pay the ransom. Iran (like N. Korea) see nukes as an an extortion tool. A bargaining chip. A chance to wield power and control a spot at the table of world affairs. Some of this is "give in to us or we sell it to others".

We know there are groups out there though that don't fear any retaliation. They don't have a state, don't give a shit if their people live or die because they are on a "mission from God" (sorry Blue's Brothers) .. and those groups buy these technologies from rouge states. So any state emerging with that technology deserves international scrutiny. Obviously.

We can't let every nation on Earth become nuclear states. If you want to argue about the US, Russia, China, etc and other nations that already have them then the only way to solve the problem is to build a time machine. Those nations already have them now and the only way to deal with it is to draw down the numbers of weapons in the stockpiles. Not increase the threat to the entire world by adding new members to the club.

Lastly, I specifically said it was not the Iranian people in general that are the problem, but the hard line psychos in charge. Yet, don't forget there are demonstrations in the streets for Ahmadinejad too. So they say.

Am still amazed Americans need to have this discussion, the "is it or is it not torture?" I think it detracts from the more important facts that came out from all this. The case for that has always been closed, its pretty clear from day 1 it was torture.

- the administration put torture forward as a policy
- the OLC wrote laws and legislation allowing torture to occur
- torture was renamed and regulated in an effort to legalize its application
- it was carried out in 3 US military complexes in Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and Bagram airbase
- it was actively applied by forward intelligence agents with the US military and was encouraged
- it was used as well through US cooperation with states that torture (egypt, syria, uzbekistan and etc)
- the administration lied about torture being 'isolated bad apples' post Abu Ghraib
- private military contractors were involved in its application and administration
- the military and intelligence apparatus was forced into producing results and green light into using torture techniques.
- far worse techniques were used other then water boarding which are still being blacklisted
- they did everything to cover it up, then spin the argument around one technique, then make it seem necessary, remember that once the scandal broke the KSM argument was put forward
- its been shown not to work at all no single intelligence agency has put forward any actionable intelligence produced through torture
- there has been no ticking time bomb scenarios a la 24
- there will be no persecutions of those who were responsible for these policies
- massive international damage to american standing

Oh excellent. I was wondering why you never answered my messages.

Well, we're going to gather some sources for you over this weekend and I'll invite you to an art overview document we're making on google docs.

Did I mention that I ♥ you for helping?

In reply to this comment by NicoleBee:
I finally saw all your messages on MSN today.. Sorry sorry! I don't use that computer much right now (It's mostly in the hands of my brother for his wily TF2 gaming habits! I just painted him a spraypaint tag, in fact)

Please let me know about the painting thing! I heard you settled on beer production. I understand its an isometricish top-down view and components will have to fit together. Will there be a specific grid size for them to conform to? If you could put together just a few source pictures of apparatus you find particularily appealing, I can try to distill a sort of demo to see if I can come close to what you're looking for!

I finally saw all your messages on MSN today.. Sorry sorry! I don't use that computer much right now (It's mostly in the hands of my brother for his wily TF2 gaming habits! I just painted him a spraypaint tag, in fact)

Please let me know about the painting thing! I heard you settled on beer production. I understand its an isometricish top-down view and components will have to fit together. Will there be a specific grid size for them to conform to? If you could put together just a few source pictures of apparatus you find particularily appealing, I can try to distill a sort of demo to see if I can come close to what you're looking for!

u forgot something simple.....the so-called, "now the minority, functions in a print-based, literate world...blah blah no common sense blah"..has been groomed to think that their so-called apparatus for being able to use the gray is somewhat more refined... this too is, however, also a construct-So...You think yer so smart, fucker?!! Think again-YER A tool in one of the groups you so easily muse in some sanctimonious, and/or, drug/programming induced aside, reduced to a dualistic, "this or that" here

The rednecks and throwbacks you separate yourself or themselves from, are just as fucked 3 ways from Sunday as you are, the very sift-talk post speaks tomes to your lack of critical thinking skills, perhaps a result of some twisted imprint...Have a NICE or otherwise fucked day-And go feed a homeless bunch a fuckers who think like you for Easter!

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I would like to thank all of you for your apparent confidence in installing me as Supreme Sift Chancellor. I have earned political capital from this vote, and I intend to spend it.

I pledge to you that there will be no more messy discussions over guilt or innocence debated in a public fourm. We all know that it is only a small subset of Sifters who are causing difficulties. Of course, we know who they are.

Justice will be served on them silently, in the night while most of you are safely asleep. I will personally deal with the troublemakers and ensure they are sent somewhere where they cannot taint our beautiful Sift fatherland further.

Herr Goebbels760 - prepare to dismantle the corrupt siftquisition apparatus, a glorious new epoch is nearly upon us!

He's using "inevitable" in an interesting sense, but one that completely avoids the fundamental question of free will.

He may be right in the sense that this ability to avoid things is all society really needs. We don't really need libertarian (not talking about the political sense) free will within our conceptual apparatus.

But there's no reason to equivocate on "inevitable" in this way.


Dennett is an okay philosopher. He's adequate, but as this clip shows, not really the best.