YAY Mormonism!

I have no love for wacky, made-up religions, but...

Is her insanity a symptom of the Mormonism, or is her belief in Mormonism just another symptom of her insanity?

Causation or correlation?

What disgusts me the most is the total lack of empathy even for her own child

So yeah she's insane

I feel very sad... and an enormous amount of hate and rage.


She's in prison right? Surely video evidence of child abuse doesn't just get ignored. Do children not have any rights in the US?

>> ^KnivesOut:

I have no love for wacky, made-up religions, but...
Is her insanity a symptom of the Mormonism, or is her belief in Mormonism just another symptom of her insanity?
Causation or correlation?


The correct answer is: Yes.

Every church has their wackos; safe bet on the latter.>> ^EMPIRE:

>> ^KnivesOut:
I have no love for wacky, made-up religions, but...
Is her insanity a symptom of the Mormonism, or is her belief in Mormonism just another symptom of her insanity?
Causation or correlation?

The correct answer is: Yes.

That is hard a hell for me to watch. I would NEVER do anything remotely like that to my kids. Fuck, I was almost in tears for that kid. That woman had better be glad I wasn't around for that or she would have some serious hot sauce breath and a nice, long, cold shower......and a size eleven boot up her ass.

Yes disgusting. I could have gone without watching this video 5 mins before I have to go pickup my daughter from school. Needless to say I am going to give her a huge hug..

fap, fap, fap.

I have no intention of watching this. Truly do not need to see a kid being abused thanks very much.

Understandable. That said, it is watchable if infuriating.
>> ^spoco2:

I have no intention of watching this. Truly do not need to see a kid being abused thanks very much.

It's so brave for an adult to frighten and humiliate a 5-yr old. And I'm guessing she's actually PROUD of her parenting skills. (Well, maybe a TV shrink will help her rethink this. But I doubt it.) Again, let us turn to the Bible for wisdom. Proverbs 23:13-14

23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

23:14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Do we know for sure she is Mormon? Just because it was labeled that doesn't mean it is true....

This is horrifying. At least that kid will have this to look back on later, that others knew that what she did was WRONG WRONG WRONG.

I can't hardly stand it.

>> ^kronosposeidon:

It's so brave for an adult to frighten and humiliate a 5-yr old. And I'm guessing she's actually PROUD of her parenting skills. (Well, maybe a TV shrink will help her rethink this. But I doubt it.) Again, let us turn to the Bible for wisdom. Proverbs 23:13-14

23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
23:14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

"Why did you lie???"

"Because I'm fucking terrified of my insane bitch mother..."

Fucking c#nt...

That's the best Chalula hot sauce commercial I've seen.

She probably ruined her child enjoying spicy foods when he grows up.

She should work for the CIA. We'd find bin Laden in no time. Well, if he pulled three cards today.

Where is a /b/ crusade when you need it.

Time to find her house and make her life a living hell if you ask me.

*slaps her smug face*

My mom used to "wash" my mouth out with soap as a child. Being very tired of that hackneyed symbolic gesture and wishing for it to end, I pretended like I enjoyed it. I really didn't, but she had to try something else. Hot sauce was the next "punishment".

...I just ate a large burrito about 20 minutes ago...it had lots of hot sauce. From that point on, discipline was a tasty ritual in the Draper household.

What the hell is "pulling cards" anyway?

Also, can anyone find a full length version of this video, I want to see what happens after that.

man... what an asshole. I hope she got the help she needed.

Indefensible and utterly wrong. That was hard to watch. Poor devil, that little boy.

When I was a kid it was normal for my peers and I to receive a mouthful of fairy washing up liquid if we swore or lied, so I can sortof understand but only up to a point. Being instructed to keep the hot sauce in the mouth for more than 5 seconds and then following up with a cold shower is going way too far.

Personally I think that children and young adults need to be made aware of the consequences of their actions and normally I'd welcome small punishments that reinforce the point of lying being unacceptable, in this case though the mother has obviously lost the respect of her child because she has demonstrated cruelty on a repeated basis. There's a whole world of difference between punishment and cruelty and this woman obviously doesn't get it.

That was pretty weak. Hot sauce and a cold shower? Please, I'd have taken that any day. Y'all need to see some real child abuse before you accost this woman as the spawn of hell. She was in control of her actions and the consequences sounded like they were predetermined.

Here's a measure of rationality: you're siding with Dr. Phil.

>> ^Pantalones:

That was pretty weak. Hot sauce and a cold shower? Please, I'd have taken that any day. Y'all need to see some real child abuse before you accost this woman as the spawn of hell. She was in control of her actions and the consequences sounded like they were predetermined.
Here's a measure of rationality: you're siding with Dr. Phil.


Uh-huh.

Fuck you.

Mother Inferior.

uhh ya, that's not much for people to be crying over. Nothing physical, some mental punishment. Call me when the kid is screamed at and thrown threw drywall. He can join the club.

Side note, hot sauce is delicious.>> ^Gallowflak:

>> ^Pantalones:
That was pretty weak. Hot sauce and a cold shower? Please, I'd have taken that any day. Y'all need to see some real child abuse before you accost this woman as the spawn of hell. She was in control of her actions and the consequences sounded like they were predetermined.
Here's a measure of rationality: you're siding with Dr. Phil.

Uh-huh.
Fuck you.

she's cool

course my son gets the belt instead of yelling at.

5 to 10 with belt and good to go,

course he learns his lesson in the private school i sent him, they still honor corporal punishment with paddling in front of the class which he's only got once.

Stupid religious bitch

Just because this kid could've had it worse does not mean this isn't abuse. It is. I'm not saying it's quite at the level of being horrific but it is going too far and, if it continues, it will scar and damage this child.

And I say this as somebody who's fully prepared to spank my (eventual) children if I feel it necessary.

I can tell you as a Mormon (non-practicing but still around it daily here in Idaho) that this is just not normal. I showed it to my mom(as active a Mormon as can be) who couldn't take more than about a minute of it. This is one of those cases of "there are some in every religion". I drink, party and generally do everything the church advises against but I would be shocked if I could find many active Mormons that I have ever met in my 30 years that would ever condone this type of parenting.

Wow. I've finally found a video I can't upvote. Like, I've upvoted quite a few videos that I disagree with, that I despise, just so they can get more views and conversations started, but I can't upvote this.

Abuse is making your child terrified of you. This child is terrified of his mother. That is just plain wrong.

I don't give a flying shit what any of you have been through that makes this seem tame to you. It just goes to show that ANY amount of abuse has repercussions in later life. Your parents did you no favours.

>> ^Ydaani:

I can tell you as a Mormon (non-practicing but still around it daily here in Idaho) that this is just not normal. I showed it to my mom(as active a Mormon as can be) who couldn't take more than about a minute of it. This is one of those cases of "there are some in every religion". I drink, party and generally do everything the church advises against but I would be shocked if I could find many active Mormons that I have ever met in my 30 years that would ever condone this type of parenting.


Yeah, I think the religious angle was overdone. There are plenty of bad parents from every walk of life, belief system (or lack thereof), colour and creed.

Side note, I have some ultra hot habenaro sauce at my place I'd like her to hold in her mouth for a minute... One drop had my wife crying for about 30 minutes (she did eat it voluntarily I might add ; )

@Stu

You're not even joking, are you?

The fact that there is worse abuse is not an excuse for this brutal and disgusting behaviour.

The fact that she is being excused by people who seem to be intimately familiar with childhood abuse is, at the very least, disturbing and rather eye-opening.

The brutality that the mother is willing to resort to, no less than traumatizing her own child, is revolting. This bitch doesn't need your defence, nor should she have it; we have a word for people who display such malignancy... we call them sociopaths.

@cito

Fuck you.

I don't think hot sauce or a cold shower are really the problem here. What's sad is that the boy is obviously terrified of confiding in his mother and chose to lie because of it. Apparently she doesn't understand that and only makes it worse for him.

Also, I suppose "pulling a card" means being marked down for doing something wrong at school. The mother doesn't even seem interested in hearing his story about the incident, or in him understanding why what he did was wrong. Instead he just gets general punishment for "the card". Apparently she wants him to grow up doing what people tell him to do so he doesn't have to eat hot sauce, instead of being able to differentiate between right and wrong.

I guess you could draw parallels to religion, but I don't see a real connection here. It's just bad parenting.

This is how Sybil got started...

Equally terrifying is that she knew she was on camera this whole time. If this is how she acts when people are watching . . .

Not to justify her actions but it's funny (as in odd) how kids, even though they know how much trouble they'll get in, still do the things that get them in trouble. That fact would make her even angrier..

Hmm, I thought they closed Gitmo...

Things i can't believe after looking at this video/comments:

1) The video
2) People saying "this is nothing, rofl" - may i interest you in an old Monty Python sketch?
3) That people have downvoted comments that say "how can you say this isn't abuse, are you crazy?"

I couldn't watch past 30 seconds. As a victim of what i would term "relatively tame" abuse, i can assure you that there were huge periods of my life when i didn't want to live, i'm affected by it every day of my life, and it's impacted on my relationships, my friendships, my self esteem, my education and my goals in life.

If you've been a victim of abuse, ANY kind of abuse, you allow your abusers to win when you belittle someone else's trauma - the mental scars they imparted on you are the reason you feel the need to get into one-upmanship when you see someone suffering. You fuckers make my stomach turn almost worse than watching the video.

Gah now i accidentally upvoted one of those fucker's comments.

Looks like a common case of person tortured by someone in their adolescence, and so wants to dish out the same punishment when they have power and therefore obviously the cycle of abuse will just continue...

I knew a woman some years ago who ran away with her kid to a Mormon in Florida, it soon came out that her daughter was being forced to take scalding hot baths when she got in trouble. Similar punishment, though perhaps worse. Makes me wonder if this kind of thing isn't pretty typical in Mormonism. And yes, that guy is in prison now.

In all seriousness it sounds to me like this punishment was that A: Some kid stole his pencil and he was arguing to get it back and B: He was playing when he wasn't supposed to. Considering the kid looks like he's probably 7 or 8 this seems to be some pretty god damn hardcore punishments for typical every day child behavior.

My question is why would she be so stupid to post this on the interwebs?


Edit: On the subject of Mormonism. I used to live were the religion was founded, Palmira NY. So I knew a few mormon families as a young kid and most were pretty normal. But like all religions there are many sects of Mormonism and some are extremely hardcore. This mother probably belongs to one of those sects.

>> ^Payback:


I don't give a flying shit what any of you have been through that makes this seem tame to you. It just goes to show that ANY amount of abuse has repercussions in later life. Your parents did you no favours.


Hear hear.

Can't wait for the aliens to invade and turn on the suppression field so we stop reproducing. Fucking humans.

http://videosift.com/video/Worst-Parent-in-World-Trick-Child-on-Xmas

WTF are you assholes going off on a religious rant? This has nothing to do with religion...there are plenty of religious and non-religious nuts out there. Both sides have plenty of crazies.

This is about a woman being the worst possible parent she can be. The scary thing is, I have a feeling that she didnt come up with this idea on her own. Im feel sad that someone probably said to her "have you tried giving him hot sauce and cold showers?!"

Sigh. That was hard to watch. Id actually watch that episode of Dr. Phil just to see what she had to say.

This does raise a question however. What is an acceptable punishment for a kid? It seems natural to make him aware of consequences to his actions. You could say, "send him to his room," but in this age of PSPs and action figures, that's not really a punishment. He was probably going to go there anyway. What should she do? Make him run a lap? Not give him toys on Christmas? Make him sneak his desert rather than give it to him outright? How do you make the kid really regret his behavior?

This particular form of abuse does not carry with it any physical harm, so I can see how someone might perceive it as a relatively tame way of making consequences felt. However, it is also clear from the video that the parent has completely lost the trust and respect of the child, and thus her form of discipline has diminished effectiveness. The kid is being taught to avoid being caught (lying), rather than avoiding the behavior.

This begs the question, in todays world, what is an appropriately measured form of parental discipline? How do you discipline your kids? Does it work?

yea this is tame compared to most I see in rl here.

I've seen kids acting out in grocery store get snatched up and spanked with their mother's shoe in middle of aisle, and everyone else sighs a THANK YOU for it after the hellion finally calms down.

corporal punishment is a good thing, and I support it 100%, now constantly yelling and time outs and screaming doesn't work and never will. That's why a good paddling or belt to the bum will solve an unruly child.

What a f**king whore.

>> ^Esoog:
This is about a woman being the worst possible parent she can be. The scary thing is, I have a feeling that she didnt come up with this idea on her own. Im feel sad that someone probably said to her "have you tried giving him hot sauce and cold showers?!"
Sigh. That was hard to watch. Id actually watch that episode of Dr. Phil just to see what she had to say.

The sad fact is that she is not the worst possible parent she can be.

She's not selling her son as a prostitute to pedophiles.
She's not feeding him hallucinogens or depressants just to see what would happen.
She's not letting him starve to death while she plays FarmVille.
She's not throwing him through a wall (as someone else alluded to previously).
She's not doing any of a gajillion things that would make her a worse parent than what she displayed in this clip.

Is she a good parent? Not by any means.
While a cold shower might be an appropriate way of getting the attention of a stubborn child, having them hold hot sauce in their mouth for a full minute is not. That's abusive.


The goal of disciplining a child is twofold:
1 - To reinforce that there are consequences for a child's actions.
2 - To get the child to consider their actions and why they were wrong.

One offense was fighting over pencils. Does the hot sauce punishment accomplish #2? How about the cold shower?
I think we can agree that they accomplished #1, since the boy knew that was coming.

Another offense was the lie he told.
Now, one could argue that the hot sauce is a suitable punishment for the lie. It's twisted logic, as the burning feeling in his mouth is the consequence for using the same mouth to tell lies. I still don't find it appropriate, but I can at least understand the logic.

Bad parent? In my opinion, yes.
Worst parent ever? Not even close.

[redacted]

As a kid, I was in between two sets of grandparents. Unfortunately the ones my brothers and I ended up with were the ones that hit us with belts and flyswatters, and even threw my oldest brother down the stairs at 8 (luckly he ended up with the other grandparents or he might have ended up murdering them in their sleep). My other grandparents on my dad's side never hit us and didn't yell.

The difference?...With the bad grandparents there was no trust. If we did something wrong we would hide it and lie though our teeth. I mean if you are going to get beat up for every little thing it eventually dulls you down. If you are going to fuck up then fuck up big. With the good grandparents, whenever they got disappointed in me (and this still happens) I really felt bad. They didn't even have to do much with punishment because I love and trusted them so much I didn't want to let them down. If that's how that mother acts all the time I doubt there will be much love and trust in that relationship.

I'll take a quick beating and a hug over psychological torture any day...>> ^Stu:

uhh ya, that's not much for people to be crying over. Nothing physical, some mental punishment. Call me when the kid is screamed at and thrown threw drywall. He can join the club.
Side note, hot sauce is delicious.>> ^Gallowflak:
>> ^Pantalones:
That was pretty weak. Hot sauce and a cold shower? Please, I'd have taken that any day. Y'all need to see some real child abuse before you accost this woman as the spawn of hell. She was in control of her actions and the consequences sounded like they were predetermined.
Here's a measure of rationality: you're siding with Dr. Phil.

Uh-huh.
Fuck you.

>> ^Payback:

Wow. I've finally found a video I can't upvote. Like, I've upvoted quite a few videos that I disagree with, that I despise, just so they can get more views and conversations started, but I can't upvote this.
Abuse is making your child terrified of you. This child is terrified of his mother. That is just plain wrong.
I don't give a flying shit what any of you have been through that makes this seem tame to you. It just goes to show that ANY amount of abuse has repercussions in later life. Your parents did you no favours.


I never understood this mentality. Shouldn't the intention of the video post be considered when voting and not the actual content. For instance, it's not like the poster was showboating how cool it is to abuse a child. It was more or less to expose this type of behavior. If you upvoted, it's not because you're pro-child abuse, you'd upvote because the video was informational, helpful, entertaining, etc.

Theres a little bit more on Dr. Phils website (not much mind):
http://www.drphil.com/shows/show/1545

OK, you know what, Be a Parent some time.
Ignorance is what makes people hate screaming kids.

There was a point when the sound of screaming kids scratched down my back like nails on a chalkboard.
But you know what fixed that, Having my own kids. Whether by chemical or by experience, my attitude changed drastically as I understood the nature of a child.

The only ones "Sighing a Thank-you" are either not parents - or were emotionally challenged, detached parents.

I'm not going to go into all the details of my children growing up but, now when I hear a child scream/cry, I smile, not just because I've been there, but because I understand and I feel for them. I make a point - every time - of flashing the parent a warm smile - so they know it's OK, don't panic, kids do that, they will grow out of it when dealt with calmly, and most of all so that the parents don't feel alone in their plight.

If every parent could step back, take a deep breath and block everything out, then engage the child again in a calming way, the world would be much different. The fact is, we all have emotions, sometimes they get away from us. It's up to the rest of us to help out, not support the wrong reactions from the parents.

>> ^cito:

yea this is tame compared to most I see in rl here.
I've seen kids acting out in grocery store get snatched up and spanked with their mother's shoe in middle of aisle, and everyone else sighs a THANK YOU for it after the hellion finally calms down.
corporal punishment is a good thing, and I support it 100%, now constantly yelling and time outs and screaming doesn't work and never will. That's why a good paddling or belt to the bum will solve an unruly child.

To all those who are saying that a cold shower and some hot sauce is nothing - I believe you are wrong.

Yes, we do stuff like that to our friends - as a joke, Ha Ha.

That isn't what this is!

This is a child. The only thing he is feeling at this moment is fear.
Not the fear of letting someone down - as in, yes I got a card, I'm sorry, I screwed up - all I ever want to do is please you - because I love and respect you.
This is the , No Mommy, No mommy, Please don't, I trusted you, you were supposed to be the only person who would understand me type of fear. The feeling of betrayal, shock, utter dread, wanting to shrink into a fetal ball and hide type of fear.

This kid is only about 7 years old. A parent does everything they can to protect their child from experiencing this kind of fear. That's the job of a parent. "Protector!" Not by duty, but by instinct and love for your child.

If this causes tears, anger and utter rage in the eyes of people who are not this kids parent, just think what we would do if that was our child or your child). You'd not only want to rip out that woman's throat, you'd do it! Think about it, if you wouldn't let other people do that to your child, why the hell would it be OK for her to do it to any child, especially her own!

Not only is she using a punishment. She is using it to ridicule and belittle him, combined with the torturous punishment, and yes, it is torture to that child. She is striping him of right he has - and yes he has rights, every human being has.

What the fuck is going on?

>> ^Pantalones:
That was pretty weak. Hot sauce and a cold shower? Please, I'd have taken that any day. Y'all need to see some real child abuse before you accost this woman as the spawn of hell. She was in control of her actions and the consequences sounded like they were predetermined.
Here's a measure of rationality: you're siding with Dr. Phil.


I mentioned getting mouthfuls of fairy washing up liquid when I lied or swore as a child, but didn't mention the thick leather belt with the huge buckle my mother kept for special occasions (well, mostly when she was drunk or in a bad mood so most of the time really), or the cane that my headmaster used for giving pupils 6 of the best (even the best behaved boys and girls could expect to be caned once a month). Did I mention we were also forced to take cold showers in the morning at school? Yes, it was a boarding school but thankfully a co-ed so it wasn't all bad Must've been worse for the Eton boys! I can take it, and I reckon most people who grew up with such abuse can too. Mind you, our definition of child abuse can be very different to the extremes of abuse in some other countries.

What I find hard to decide in any absolute terms is how much punishment is necessary to make people aware of the consequences for their actions. While I would never go to extremes with leather belts or canes I think there is a balance to be found for each individual child. Having said that, some things are just torturous and really aren't necessary. Finding the right balance of unpleasantness as a consequence is something that has to be decided and warranted for each wrongful act. Premeditated consequences like this only enforce a mental conditioning that prevents the child being able to properly express himself in later life.

@Crunchy @Hive13 @spoco2 @Gallowflak @Sagemind @calvados @Reefie @Pantalones

I'm with reefie and pantalones on this one, yes I got my mouth washed out with soap but I also had a pair of boxing gloves thrown at me and strapped on while I got my ass kicked "so you dont hurt me." I'm not saying that everything here is exactly right; but the punishment was mild at best.

I don't particularly think that she's ridiculing him, the hot sauce and cold shower seem like alternative corporal punishments that have been established as consequences for the behavior. It seems like she's simply following through with said consequences.

Idk about everyone else, but i'll take hot sauce (something actually edible) over Dial soap and a cold shower (something uncomfortable but not really outright painful) over a belt or a punch to the face any day. So to be clear, to those calling this "abuse" I think you can find much much better examples of abuse that fit the definition of that word more precisely than what we have here.

Just for saying's sake, lets go with the best definition from freeonlinedictionary "To hurt or injure by maltreatment" or to take it a step further, lets look at the actual documents that define abuse in US courts: http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/factsheets/whatiscan.cfm

I had a hard time finding anything on the childwelfare site that fit what happened here and defined what happened as abuse. On the other hand, when the site says under emotional abuse: "Permitted other maladaptive behavior—encouragement or permitting of other maladaptive behavior (e.g., chronic delinquency, severe assault) under circumstances where the parent or caregiver has reason to be aware of the existence and seriousness of the problem but does not intervene."

I would argue that if she did nothing in this situation that she could be complicit in committing emotional abuse (as defined by the child welfare site) but if the kid acted out at school and she did nothing I sincerely doubt anyone would be "not watching" for fear of what you might see (a kid not being receiving a consequence for bad behavior and lying). The punishments, although a bit unusual, are not anything to write home about. Those of you who disagree, I encourage you to prove me wrong with some legal citation (you know, instead of just saying "fuck you" ala Galoflak).

Also, here are some examples of what US law at least defines as maltreatment

Case Examples Of Maltreatment (from the same link i posted above)

Physical Abuse
During a violent fight between her mother and her mother's boyfriend, 8-year-old Kerry called 911. She told the operator that her mother's boyfriend always hit her mommy when he came home drunk. In addition, Kerry said she was worried about her 5-year-old brother, Aaron, because he tried to help their mom and the boyfriend punched him in the face. As a result, Aaron fell, hit his head on the coffee table, and had not moved since. The operator heard yelling in the background and the mother screaming, "Get off the phone!" When the police and paramedics arrived, Aaron was unconscious and the mother had numerous bruises on her face.

Child Neglect
Robert and Carlotta are the parents of a 9-month-old son named Ruiz. Robert and Carlotta used various drugs together until Robert was arrested and sent to prison for distributing cocaine. Since Robert's arrest, Carlotta has been living with different relatives and friends. Recently, she left her son with her sister who also has a history of drug use. Her sister then went to a local bar and left Ruiz unattended. After hearing the baby boy cry for over an hour, the neighbors called the police. When Carlotta arrived to pick up Ruiz, the police and the CPS worker were also there. It appeared that she had been using drugs.

Sexual Abuse
Jody, age 11, said that she was asleep in her bedroom and that her father came in and took off his robe and underwear. She stated that he got into bed with her and pulled up her nightgown and put his private part on her private part. She stated that he pushed hard and it hurt. Jody said that the same thing had happened before while her mother was at work. Jody stated that she told her mother, but her father insisted that she was telling a lie.

Psychological Abuse
Jackie is a 7-year-old girl who lives with her mother. Jackie's mother often screams at her, calls her degrading names, and threatens to kill her when Jackie misbehaves. Jackie doesn't talk in class anymore, doesn't have any friends in her neighborhood, and has lost a lot of weight.

I still haven't watched the video, and still won't. I hate seeing a child have the trust and love that should be there between them and their kid be violated, so I still won't.

But, I just read through the comments and I see a number of people saying 'well, what should parent's do for punishment? You're not supposed to give a smack any more.'

And this question is an interesting one, and one that results in a lot of consideration at our house.

We have four kids. 7,6,4 and 17months. The 17 month old is too young for seriously doing wrong stuff, and for understanding being told off in any real sense anyway, so let's put her out of the equation. The three boys on the other hand will do countless things every day that can really get you riled up. When you're trying to get ready for school and get out the door and they dawdle with something or other despite repeated polite calls to please get dressed and get their shoes on. When they keep fighting and hurting each other. When they get stuck in a 'whinge mode' where they want something and will.not.let.up about it... that's the one that can really drive you nuts.

All of these things can cause you, as a parent to really get angry (and yeah, when you write them down they sound lame as anything, but other parents will get how annoying things like that can be)... and you can't now say 'This is your fourth warning, if you don't get your shoes on you're getting a smack', so what can you threaten? You tend to run out of punishments... in the cases when you're trying to get to school you can't make them go to their room (which works pretty well in our house as we don't have many toys or anything in their room, just books, so it's chill out and read time if they want), because you have to leave, like, 5 minutes ago. And so, you find yourself yelling at them. And this is something I'm REALLY bloody struggling with, I'm tending to yell too much. There's no swearing, no insults, just 'WOULD YOU GET READY RIGHT NOW!' and the like... and then you start realising that you are doing that all the time. And it's really NOT a good way to interact with your kids.

But you know what I discovered a little while ago that really stops them misbehaving or stop crying and whinging about wanting something, or just in general puts a stop to the behaviour rather than the final yell or final threat of a smack?

'If you do not get ready now, I'm taking $2 from your pocket money'.

It works a treat.
a) They actually do NOT want that to happen
b) It's a threat you can go through with (and we have on occasion). (Sometimes you'll find yourself making a threat you cannot go through with 'If you don't stop playing up we're not going to the party', when you have no intention of not going, so they can call your bluff)
c) It's re-enforcing good behaviour = reward, bad behaviour = punishment, as they get the pocket money for cleaning etc.

It's not the only solution obviously, and they do get sent to their room when it's not a time critical thing, and you do give warnings to allow them to stop without any form of punishment... but it's a good 'last resort' one that works well with my kids.

And early on I did smack my kids on occasion when it got to that end point, but my god I felt bad about it afterwards and it doesn't seem to have any positive result, just seems to make them get rougher in their play later on. So, smacking is out, yelling ALL the time really needs to be out, and I'm working on it, but man kids can rile you up.

Parenting isn't an exact science, you make mistakes, you yell when you didn't mean to, you may smack them when you didn't mean to, but if you're ever starting to make your kid really fear you, really feel afraid of what you may do to them, then I think you're doing something wrong. (Which I gather is what is going on in this video).

Ahem.

That was quite the bloody novel wasn't it?

As you were.

@spoco2 Well sure, it seems like you've decided on a punishment and stuck with it. The kid in this video (what some deem ridicule) is being chastised by his mother but what she's doing amounts to little more than "What did you do wrong? (kid answers) What is the expected punishment that accompanies that behavior? (kid answers)" and this is repeated.

Honestly there isn't anything in the video that's morally reprehensible and again I challenge anyone to find any legal standing that supports the idea that this constitutes abuse.

p.s. spoco, there is a big difference between shattering trust and love and refusing to reinforce bad behavior. The former didn't happen in this video, so stop being a pussy and watch it already.

A mother or father owes the greatest debt of all to their child... the responsibility of being the custodian to an entire human life. Children are vulnerable in the extreme and even with all of their flaws, mistakes, shortcomings, they are still not a fully-formed, self-aware human being. They're incomplete and malleable, both in a profound way.

And the way that a parent is willing to treat their child, whose development they're responsible for, is a pretty fucking good indicator of who they are as a human being.

@JiggaJonson

I reserve my right to say "fuck you" to people who're in endorsement of brutal treatment of children or those who, like @cito , even went as far as to announce that they use a belt on their own child.

Don't try and tell me that this won't have any lasting impact on the kid.

Further, "not exactly right"? A lot of you people seem to be concentrating on the mechanics of the punishment, and not whether or not it's appropriate. Or proportionate. Or justified. You'd have a hard time convincing me that it could ever be justified, but that's not important... What's the deal? This is a moral consideration and not just a pragmatic one.

I call her a sociopath for behaving as exemplified in this video. It's not a claim I'll rescind.

Unbelievable. I have 2 little ones ( 4 and 6) and would never do such a thing. ( thought about it ) That is crossing way over the line. Kids lie all the time. So do adults.
Thank god for the daughter that took the video.

>> ^cito:

yea this is tame compared to most I see in rl here.
I've seen kids acting out in grocery store get snatched up and spanked with their mother's shoe in middle of aisle, and everyone else sighs a THANK YOU for it after the hellion finally calms down.
corporal punishment is a good thing, and I support it 100%, now constantly yelling and time outs and screaming doesn't work and never will. That's why a good paddling or belt to the bum will solve an unruly child.


Sounds like lazy parenting. "Should I find the source of the problem?...nah I'll just hit it with a belt until it does what I want."

>> ^Gallowflak:


The fact that there is worse abuse is not an excuse for this brutal and disgusting behaviour.
The fact that she is being excused by people who seem to be intimately familiar with childhood abuse is, at the very least, disturbing and rather eye-opening.
The brutality that the mother is willing to resort to, no less than traumatizing her own child, is revolting. This bitch doesn't need your defence, nor should she have it; we have a word for people who display such malignancy... we call them sociopaths.

I'll go so far as to say this woman is probably reaping what she sowed. A certain amount of bad behavior is learned from bad parenting. But if you think children are raised in a perfect world where they listen to everything you say without question and never act out, and that the solution is rationalizing and giving them a hug then you're living in a dream. Seriously, you were sold some tsunami insurance for property in Colorado and the best part is you don't even know it. What f*cking Rousseau wet dream did you slurp off the floor? I dare you to raise a kid without limits and not call him a sociopath. Pull your head out and try a cold shower with some hot sauce. It's not bad. At the very least it's not worth your judgement. Half the world's population would beg for fresh water and hot sauce on a regular basis, this kid gets it for punishment. This was not trauma. This was a kid wailing because he got caught. What this kid got was discipline and structure. If you can't recognize the difference then God help your kids, because you can't.


But this is all moot. The woman broke no law, left no physical mark, and was within her rights as a parent. That means all willing to cast stones should put their nose someplace else. Gallowflak's "Fuck you" is a nice warm steaming pile to start with.

@JiggaJonson

I was horribly abused as a kid. Typical discipline in my house was extremely violent from my mother. I had stitches a few times from dinner plates to the face for hiding my vegetables in a napkin to throw them away without eating them to having a broomstick broken over my head for being 10 minutes late. Basically, whatever my mom had in her hand at the time was what was used upside my head. If she had done half the shit to me now that she did back then, she'd have been thrown in jail and I would have been assigned a new mother.

This woman is just as fucked up and out of line as my own mother was. Just because I ate a bar of soap and this kid has to drink hot sauce doesn't make it less abusive. There are a thousand better ways to discipline kids than abusing them and mentally destroying them like this crazy bitch.

Do you know why that little boy lied to her? He was scared shitless of the woman. He would have gotten the same or worse treatment from her if he had told her in the first place. He was hedging his bets in the hopes of not getting caught. He is terrified of her.

Kids lie about shit. All of them do. You just have to be smarter than a five year old and pay attention to your kids and you'll see right through their crap. It isn't difficult.

You also mentioned that this isn't clearly spelled out as abuse in the child welfare guidelines, but this was 2 minutes of this kid's life. Imagine what the other 23 hours and 58 minutes are like. Imagine how much worse it is going to get down the road for this kid.

I am guessing you don't have kids, and if you do, I hope that you don't think anything even remotely close to what this woman is saying and doing are anywhere even close to normal. Defending her and dismissing it as "I got worse" or "it isn't all that bad" is, frankly, sickening.

As a father of three with a forth on the way, I can honestly say that if I ever did anything like this to my kids, I could never live with myself. This woman almost seemed to enjoy it and relish in the power.

I am an atheist, average person. Maybe I can see things more clearly without the need to save them from the devil or whatever shit is driving this woman.

@Pantalones

What the hell are you talking about? How do you go from my criticism of excessive punishment to assuming that I'd prefer raising a kid without limits? It does not follow.

What this kid got was abusive lunacy from a malicious hag who I'd not let anywhere near my children, regardless of the circumstances.

None of your assumptions make even the slightest sense, and I don't know what you think you're talking about.

I heartily disagree with your implied statement. It seems that you are claiming that anyone who received any corporal punishment as a child will surely grow up to be a dysfunctional adult. I assure you that I had my fair share of red marks on my ass from doing something I wasn't supposed to and getting spanked because of it. You can bet your ass I didn't do it again.

>> ^kronosposeidon:

It's so brave for an adult to frighten and humiliate a 5-yr old. And I'm guessing she's actually PROUD of her parenting skills. (Well, maybe a TV shrink will help her rethink this. But I doubt it.) Again, let us turn to the Bible for wisdom. Proverbs 23:13-14

23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
23:14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

>> ^MarineGunrock:
I heartily disagree with your implied statement. It seems that you are claiming that anyone who received any corporal punishment as a child will surely grow up to be a dysfunctional adult. I assure you that I had my fair share of red marks on my ass from doing something I wasn't supposed to and getting spanked because of it. You can bet your ass I didn't do it again.


The idea most of us "she's abusive" people are trying to get across is we see that boy making all the moves (or lack), and noises of a child who is completely terrified. I can bet YOUR ass when those red marks happened, you probably weren't terrified. Surely, scared of what was about to happen, but not "omfg, that crazy bitch is coming at me again" terror.

ps. This is the last time I will call you Shirley, honest!

>> ^cito:

yea this is tame compared to most I see in rl here.
I've seen kids acting out in grocery store get snatched up and spanked with their mother's shoe in middle of aisle, and everyone else sighs a THANK YOU for it after the hellion finally calms down.
corporal punishment is a good thing, and I support it 100%, now constantly yelling and time outs and screaming doesn't work and never will. That's why a good paddling or belt to the bum will solve an unruly child.


This is not just corporal punishment. Hot sauce in the mouth for over a minute (you can see the volume of liquid when the child spits) and then doused in a who knows how cold shower... I can imagine that breathing through your nose with that in your mouth would be agony (depending on how hot the sauce is) and if you should accidentally inhale some?

And as others have said, just because there is worse out there doesn't make this justified or acceptable.

To all those who think a cold shower is not torture, you obviously haven't experienced immersion in cold water where you couldn't just get out. We've all had reason to have cold showers, hot weather, horniness, hangover. I've done the sauna thing jumping thru a hole cut in ice on a lake. I've participated in a polar bear swim in the Pacific and
Atlantic. In all these things getting in and out is your choice. Not being able to get out can lead to a bone piercing agony thats unbearable and is worse if you have a small body mass like this child. Listen again to his screaming in the shower. That's not fear of the water, that's pain. Inflicting pain on that level is child abuse, certainly worse than anything I got from my father the Sergeant Major.

I can see this woman in 10 years, waking from a sound sleep to the feeling of her own child plunging a knife in her body.

Oh i get it, it has to be legally set out that it's a form of abuse in order for it to be abuse, jigga?

What about if she set up a trick where it looked like she'd hung herself and was dead when the kid got home, then screamed in his face "IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT MUMMY TO DO?" What if she constantly belittled him into the ground like only a parent can, every single day - told him he was fat and looked like a disgusting fat pig, you eat too much fatty, or worse? What if she told him she was going to leave him, pack her bags up and leave him all alone, fend for yourself, maybe you'll starve?

I'm throwing things up off the top of my head that i think might not be legislated for. I'm not a sadistic person, but i'm sure a real sadist could do better than i. And then we could go and look up whether or not they're legal and tailor it to avoid jail. Any of these things might not be set out legally as abuse, but it really REALLY fucks up someone's life.

There are many forms of recognised abuse that sit nicely on the border between legal and illegal - and you might find that's the worst kind of abuser, because it's the kind of abuser who calculated it, looked up the exact limits and planned something specifically designed to make them live in utter terror and despair, grow up to be a suicide risk, whatever else, but to have no repercussions on her/himself.

Once upon a time, nothing was illegal, then we came along and invented laws, one by one, to keep people safe from fucking lunatics. Maybe we haven't made a law about everything that needs to be a law just yet, meantime we have to hope that moral conscience does the work for us.

>> ^nanrod:

To all those who think a cold shower is not torture, you obviously haven't experienced immersion in cold water where you couldn't just get out. We've all had reason to have cold showers, hot weather, horniness, hangover. I've done the sauna thing jumping thru a hole cut in ice on a lake. I've participated in a polar bear swim in the Pacific and
Atlantic. In all these things getting in and out is your choice. Not being able to get out can lead to a bone piercing agony thats unbearable and is worse if you have a small body mass like this child. Listen again to his screaming in the shower. That's not fear of the water, that's pain. Inflicting pain on that level is child abuse, certainly worse than anything I got from my father the Sergeant Major.
I can see this woman in 10 years, waking from a sound sleep to the feeling of her own child plunging a knife in her body.


Great point! Cold water feels like burning, we all know that. It doesn't matter whether it's causing any physical damage either, the child is clearly terrified. Another point that needs to be made to some of you thick-skulled people is that abuse is abuse. It doesn't matter what level it's at, how bad you think it is, it still had the capability of ruining the victim's life.

For instance, I spent a few years in a care home, I've seen young people who went through some terrible abuse, and some not so terrible. It doesn't change how that person is going to turn out, how they can develop patterns, kick up complex coping mechanisms, and end up with a life-long tendency for depression or much worse. If abuse has taken place - and there is no way that ridiculing a child, terrifying them, burning their mouth and dousing them with cold water isn't abuse by the way - then it will effect them, in small ways or huge, no one can know until often later on in their adult life.

Talking about how "well this happened to me and this is how I turned out" is completely pointless to the argument, because every person is different and will deal with childhood trauma differently, it's all relative. How about it doesn't happen in the first place and the risk is taken out of the equation, I like that idea best...

>> ^MarineGunrock:

I heartily disagree with your implied statement. It seems that you are claiming that anyone who received any corporal punishment as a child will surely grow up to be a dysfunctional adult. I assure you that I had my fair share of red marks on my ass from doing something I wasn't supposed to and getting spanked because of it. You can bet your ass I didn't do it again.
>> ^kronosposeidon:
It's so brave for an adult to frighten and humiliate a 5-yr old. And I'm guessing she's actually PROUD of her parenting skills. (Well, maybe a TV shrink will help her rethink this. But I doubt it.) Again, let us turn to the Bible for wisdom. Proverbs 23:13-14

23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
23:14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Each of the examples you outlined clearly would be classified as abuse under the guidelines. What I wanted was something that proved legally that this was abuse. It seems like something that people would consider important, especially to those who argue so vehemently that this is abuse, that there should be a law to reflect that. I personally don't think that it is abuse, and I am happy that the laws don't reflect that it is as far as my limited search can tell. But if you think it should be, why not look it up and try to improve the law? That's what the law is there for after all.

Maybe next time you could actually read before you open your mouth.>> ^dannym3141:

Oh i get it, it has to be legally set out that it's a form of abuse in order for it to be abuse, jigga?
What about if she set up a trick where it looked like she'd hung herself and was dead when the kid got home, then screamed in his face "IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT MUMMY TO DO?" What if she constantly belittled him into the ground like only a parent can, every single day - told him he was fat and looked like a disgusting fat pig, you eat too much fatty, or worse? What if she told him she was going to leave him, pack her bags up and leave him all alone, fend for yourself, maybe you'll starve?
I'm throwing things up off the top of my head that i think might not be legislated for. I'm not a sadistic person, but i'm sure a real sadist could do better than i. And then we could go and look up whether or not they're legal and tailor it to avoid jail. Any of these things might not be set out legally as abuse, but it really REALLY fucks up someone's life.
There are many forms of recognised abuse that sit nicely on the border between legal and illegal - and you might find that's the worst kind of abuser, because it's the kind of abuser who calculated it, looked up the exact limits and planned something specifically designed to make them live in utter terror and despair, grow up to be a suicide risk, whatever else, but to have no repercussions on her/himself.
Once upon a time, nothing was illegal, then we came along and invented laws, one by one, to keep people safe from fucking lunatics. Maybe we haven't made a law about everything that needs to be a law just yet, meantime we have to hope that moral conscience does the work for us.

>> ^JiggaJonson:

Each of the examples you outlined clearly would be classified as abuse under the guidelines. What I wanted was something that proved legally that this was abuse. It seems like something that people would consider important, especially to those who argue so vehemently that this is abuse, that there should be a law to reflect that. I personally don't think that it is abuse, and I am happy that the laws don't reflect that it is as far as my limited search can tell. But if you think it should be, why not look it up and try to improve the law? That's what the law is there for after all.
Maybe next time you could actually read before you open your mouth.>> ^dannym3141:
Oh i get it, it has to be legally set out that it's a form of abuse in order for it to be abuse, jigga?
What about if she set up a trick where it looked like she'd hung herself and was dead when the kid got home, then screamed in his face "IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT MUMMY TO DO?" What if she constantly belittled him into the ground like only a parent can, every single day - told him he was fat and looked like a disgusting fat pig, you eat too much fatty, or worse? What if she told him she was going to leave him, pack her bags up and leave him all alone, fend for yourself, maybe you'll starve?
I'm throwing things up off the top of my head that i think might not be legislated for. I'm not a sadistic person, but i'm sure a real sadist could do better than i. And then we could go and look up whether or not they're legal and tailor it to avoid jail. Any of these things might not be set out legally as abuse, but it really REALLY fucks up someone's life.
There are many forms of recognised abuse that sit nicely on the border between legal and illegal - and you might find that's the worst kind of abuser, because it's the kind of abuser who calculated it, looked up the exact limits and planned something specifically designed to make them live in utter terror and despair, grow up to be a suicide risk, whatever else, but to have no repercussions on her/himself.
Once upon a time, nothing was illegal, then we came along and invented laws, one by one, to keep people safe from fucking lunatics. Maybe we haven't made a law about everything that needs to be a law just yet, meantime we have to hope that moral conscience does the work for us.



I am very pleased that you ignored the qualifying statement i put underneath those listed. I am not a legal expert (and neither are you) and i wouldn't consider a brief internet search anywhere near enough to state with certainty anything to do with the law on abuse - hence why i put a qualifier. Perhaps you shouldn't consider a brief search to be good enough either.

You've missed the sentiment - that you can tailor your abuse to legal limits by your own argument, which in a ways makes the abuse that much worse - cold, calculated, planned.

Perhaps you should read a full comment before you open your own mouth.

Additionally, jigga, i've noticed this about you in almost all arguments we get into. You seem to analyse a comment for any ambiguity and then make an entire reply based on, say, a single sentence. If you took the time to read a full comment with an open mind, you might actually get what someone is trying to say. I clearly told you that i was coming up with things "off the top of my head which i think might not be legislated for," yet your entire reply was based around me not being an expert in law. The other 20 sentences in my post said this:

Law is not the be all and end all of what is right and wrong. Many forms of abuse can be tailored to sit within the law, which shows some sort of disgusting level of sickness above and beyond someone lashing out and hitting a child in a fit of uncontrolled rage.

@Hive13
What exactly is your evidence that she seemed to enjoy it and relish the power as you say? What part of the video specifically (time)??

I'm an atheist also and as much as I despise religious ideas I don't see them overtly rearing their heads here either. Did you see something in the video that I missed? Can you be very specific about which parts of the video she seemed to relish the punishment in? Which parts were obviously influenced by religious ideas? Or are you flat our wrong and making shit up?

This woman almost seemed to enjoy it and relish in the power. I am an atheist, average person. Maybe I can see things more clearly without the need to save them from the devil or whatever shit is driving this woman.

@dannym3141

I read your "borderline" argument and don't think it holds any water. Conscience isn't enough because people have different belief systems.

>> ^JiggaJonson:

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://videosift.com/member/dannym3141" title="member since November 30th, 2007" class="profilelink">dannym3141
I read your "borderline" argument and don't think it holds any water. Conscience isn't enough because people have different belief systems.


Then i'm sure you're on the side of the twin towers suicide bombers?

People in iraq have a different belief system to people in the west, why don't you side with them in their quest to change us?

Laws were introduced recently to deal with things like that. So i guess the law isn't always right?

You're grasping at straws.

@dannym3141

Again, *sigh* you're citing something that we actually DO have laws for. There are laws, both domestic and international that condemn what happened on 9/11. But I digress, I can see I'm wasting my time on you.

And I readily agree with you here. This bitch went too far. I was only disagreeing with you before because you seemed to be saying that all forms of corporal punishment (e.g. a good ol' fanny spanking) are abusive and will make the kids turn out to be abusive.

@Payback: You're right, I wasn't terrified of my mother. I sure as hell didn't want the spanking, but I knew she loved me even as she was introducing my ass to a wooden paint mixer. Please, don't think for a second that I think this bitch was anywhere close to right in what she's done.

>> ^kronosposeidon:

>> ^MarineGunrock:
I heartily disagree with your implied statement. It seems that you are claiming that anyone who received any corporal punishment as a child will surely grow up to be a dysfunctional adult. I assure you that I had my fair share of red marks on my ass from doing something I wasn't supposed to and getting spanked because of it. You can bet your ass I didn't do it again.
>> ^kronosposeidon:
It's so brave for an adult to frighten and humiliate a 5-yr old. And I'm guessing she's actually PROUD of her parenting skills. (Well, maybe a TV shrink will help her rethink this. But I doubt it.) Again, let us turn to the Bible for wisdom. Proverbs 23:13-14

23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
23:14Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

From Dr Phil's Website:

Dr. Phil plays a video of Jessica standing in her bathroom yelling at her 7-year-old son, Kristoff. Dr. Phil interrupts the tape before its completion and turns to the mom of six.

“So that makes sense to you?” he asks, indicating her discipline techniques.

“I don’t know what to do with this child,” she replies.

“I’m just going to tell you up front, there is no theory under which that is going to work. There is no theory under which that makes sense,” Dr. Phil says. “You had to know that was going to be my attitude about this.”

“Of course,” she says.

When the videotape ends, mouths hang open, and many audience members wipe away tears.

“I need to say this and be very clear. We didn’t shoot that tape. Your daughter shot that tape,” Dr. Phil reminds Jessica. “Because if I had a camera crew in your home shooting that, and they didn’t intervene and stop it, there would be something seriously wrong with my camera crew. I think anybody would look at that and say that that is absolutely outrageous, it is over the top, it is abusive, it is inefficient, it is out of control. I’m sorry. I just have to tell you the truth.”

“You’re completely entitled to your opinions,” Jessica says. “That’s why I’m here.”

“I’m glad you are here, because I’m telling you, that has to stop,” Dr. Phil warns Jessica. “If you say you’ve been through everything — you’ve tried time-outs, you’ve done this, you’ve done that — if you’re down to that, then you need to give the child up, because you are out of control. Somebody in the audience yelled out, ‘That is evil.’ I don’t believe that. I don’t believe you’re an evil person. I think you are misguided. I think you think you’re doing the only thing you know how to do, but that is totally unacceptable.”

“Then tell me what I need to do with him,” Jessica says in frustration.

Dr. Phil explains what Jessica means in the videotape when she says Kristoff “pulled three cards" at school. Green means good job, yellow is a warning, blue is a time-out, orange means removal from class and red means a trip to the principal’s office. “He had three cards that day. What were they for?” Dr. Phil asks.

“He was throwing pencils, he was sword fighting with another child, and he was acting out in another class,” Jessica replies.

“Your theory is, based on that, he then lied about it? He didn’t tell you he got the three?”

“Correct.”

“Let me tell you, I would lie 100 out of 100 times. You are teaching him to lie,” Dr. Phil points out. “Based on results, what you’re doing isn’t working.”

“So tell me what will,” Jessica says. “I will be happy to abandon all of that.”

“I believe you are desperate for answers,” Dr. Phil notes.

In an interview, Jessica’s husband, Gary, explains how he feels about his wife’s methods for disciplining Kristoff. “Jessica is more frustrated than angry, because we’ve added more kids to the house. When Jessica gets frustrated, I see her having a shorter temper. Kristoff has not reacted to much of our discipline,” he says. “The idea for hot sauce came up from my wife talking to a friend of hers. In the military, we use cold showers for discipline, basically to get people’s attention. When Kristoff gets a cold shower, he pays attention at the moment. I feel like I’m strict with my kids.”

When the videotape ends, Dr. Phil turns to Jessica. “You believe that, in fact, he has reactive attachment disorder,” he says, referring to her adopted son.

“Correct,” she answers.

“Is that your diagnosis, or has he been seen by a professional who has rendered that diagnosis?”

“He was seen by a professional for a while, but I don’t know if that professional diagnosed him as reactive attachment disorder,” Jessica replies.

“He is a twin, and his brother is not like this at all,” Dr. Phil points out.

http://www.drphil.com/slideshows/slideshow/6062/?id=6062&showID=1545

Also:
Reactive attachment disorder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_attachment_disorder

I am about the least violent person in the world.

I have a son that age. Seeing that boy's fear and his pain made me want to grab that woman by her nappy hair and slap the shit out of her until she was cowering. I feel no remorse for wanting to do this.

Jesus I cried hearing him in that shower.

Is she the worst parent in the world?

No, as others have pointed out, not by a long-shot. However, she is definitely misguided, as Dr. Phil said on the show (thanks for the transcripts @Sagemind). Her discipline techniques are based on the idea that humans don't do "bad" things because we fear punishment. Hence, if a child does something wrong, it's because he isn't scared enough of the consequences. The obvious next logical step from that point of view is to scare the kid even more out of doing the behavior again. Like Dr. Phil said, the research shows that style of discipline is not going to get the behavior adjustment she hopes for and may have significant unintended side-effects (i.e. the kid growing up to have some kind of anxiety disorder).


Is this child abuse?

It's difficult to say just from this video. Although some might claim she is "terrorizing the child" there's a lot of ambiguity that needs to be sorted out as to what that means exactly. She's certainly not doing any physical damage to the child and unfortunately no one will know the mental effects until after the child is an adult--we don't see how she is with her kids when she's not disciplining them, after all. If this is a relatively infrequent occurrence at the house (the transcripts suggests she only started using the hotsauce recently out of desperation) and she's a nurturing and loving parent the rest of the time, it could very well be that this is something the kid will grow up and be able to laugh about. If she's like this 24-7 then yeah, the kids need to be removed from the home immediately.

I understand the kneejerk reaction of a lot of Sifters, though. "I would never do that to my kids," people are quick to say. I certainly wouldn't either. But I wonder if it has occurred to those same posters that the discipline techniques they happen use on their own kids would be considered abusive by someone else (not in the legal definition, just in the "I would never do that" kind of way). I saw some proponents of spanking in the comments, which actually IS illegal in many European countries.

The responses to this video remind me of the psychology experiment in which one group is shown a video of a man kicking a vending machine. In a follow-up interview, the viewers state that the man seemed violent and irrational and most are scared of him. Another group is shown the same video only this time they also get to see what happened before he kicked the machine: he put money in, the item he selected got stuck as it fell down the chute, and he kicks it to dislodge and retrieve the item. This group feels the man acted in a rational manner.

The point here is that we got to see only a brief, glimpse into this woman's family (one that was selected for the most dramatic TV value possible) and a lot of Sifters jumped to the conclusion that she was a psychotic abusive bitch. Is she? I don't know. And neither do you.

Two things are certain. One, this video has absolutely nothing to do with religion (thanks to previous posters for pointing this out).

Two... the video is really hard to watch.

@SDGundamX

I agree with most of what you said, except for the following paragraph...

The point here is that we got to see only a brief, glimpse into this woman's family (one that was selected for the most dramatic TV value possible) and a lot of Sifters jumped to the conclusion that she was a psychotic abusive bitch. Is she? I don't know. And neither do you.

Yes, we only got to see a brief glimpse, but I contend that it's enough to work out what's happening. The circumstances aren't sufficiently ambiguous to leave room for anything that might justify her reaction, so that doesn't seem to be an issue.

One day that kid is going to snap, and then murder his mother with a cold shower and hot sauce.

>> ^shogunkai:

One day that kid is going to snap, and then murder his mother with a cold shower and hot sauce.


More like a frozen lake and acid.

Anyway, point is, I agree with all those who said it's about the fear. Punishment can be given without causing your kid to be terrified of telling you the truth. Kids fuck up and they need to know they can trust their parents to at least understand they fucked up even if they get punished for it.

Teaching people not to do things because there's a reason it's morally wrong is better than teaching them not to do something because they fear punishment. The latter only serves to simultaneously teach that if you don't get caught, then there's nothing wrong with what you did. It teaches that there's a vast moral gray area, and plenty of room to manipulate people in order to avoid punishment.

People don't have any sort of natural, innate respect for an authority dishing out punishment. You have to believe in the reason the authority is dishing out the punishment for it to ultimately work. This is why people constantly disagree with "ultimate" authorities like God and Government...because they see the fallacies in the reasoning behind the punishments dished out by these authorities.

I surprised at how many make the argument "other things are worse, therefore this isn't bad".

This is terrible in its own right, just because someone else has it worse, or even you yourself have had it worse, does not lessen the "badness" of this.

Her child should be removed from her and she should be thrown in jail for fucking cruel and unusual punishment.

In a way the video was nothing compared to the cool way she sat in front of many many people and showed not the slightest remorse - just a "look how fantastic I am - coming for help and now you had all better give me a quick and effective answer". She has not bonded with the child - I felt a underlying resentment that she had to take both boys (she adopted twin boys) just so that she could have the one that she had bonded with. When she is told to stop - no ands, ifs or buts - she wails something about - "am I supposed to stop it for everyone". That gave me the impression that yes she gets a good feeling from this. Even if that feeling is power over another human being - she is convinced that she is doing what she needs to do. Her husband seemed out of it and explained away her behaviour as if she were the victim - having to deal with this "awful" child. The whole thing is just disgusting.

3 more comments have been lost in the ether at this killed duplicate.