I think my buddy Matt said it best.

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

*talks

Adding video to channels (Talks) - requested by Stingray.

Annnd watch her reach for the barrel of chocolates to make herself feel better... his retarded attack has probably made it worse!

...and ...*promote

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Tuesday, October 2nd, 2012 1:32pm PDT - promote requested by Sagemind.

Holy fuck! Did you guys see that the walrus can talk?

I think she got trolled.

>> ^Fairbs:

I think she got trolled.


I was going to agree, but does it count as trolling when you just write to an individual privately? Remember the anchor the one who made it public. I think it's just regular-ass harassment.

*humanitarian

Adding video to channels (Humanitarian) - requested by Trancecoach.

I don't mind that he called her fat, so much...that's fine if he wants to be a dick, that's his right. But the way he passively did it in a condescending way to make it seem that he was superior and only looking out for his community was really really cunty. If you're going to be a dick, grow a pair of balls to go with it.

I really don't see what the huge problem is here. All of this media attention?

Is she supposed to represent everyone and give people something to inspire too? No.

But I hardly found his e-mail hurtful. It was just truthful. If you can't handle the truth don't go on TV?

>> ^rottenseed:

I don't mind that he called her fat, so much...that's fine if he wants to be a dick, that's his right. But the way he passively did it in a condescending way to make it seem that he was superior and only looking out for his community was really really cunty. If you're going to be a dick, grow a pair of balls to go with it.


Actually I don't think thats his right. I believe its harassment.

"I am not fat. I am big boned."

Legally, harassment is weird to me because a lot of times the law will include phrases like "intent to annoy". Seems pretty vague to me. Without repeated incident I'd think you could email a lot of different people and call them fat without legal incident. Just don't repeatedly do it.>> ^Yogi:

>> ^rottenseed:
I don't mind that he called her fat, so much...that's fine if he wants to be a dick, that's his right. But the way he passively did it in a condescending way to make it seem that he was superior and only looking out for his community was really really cunty. If you're going to be a dick, grow a pair of balls to go with it.

Actually I don't think thats his right. I believe its harassment.

The fact that we're watching this only mean that she does have issues with her appearance.

I was in the same boat a few years back, but that's life and you try to move on. It has only been recently that I started to get serious at physical training. It's easy to just say fuck it, I'll do it tomorrow, but to do it regularly eventually pays off, and is, in the long run, a life changer in various ways.

You tell them, lady! Call out these cowardly ass-hole bullies, maybe some of them will take a second look at their behaviour.

*promote *equality

(and calling obesity a "life-style choice" is pathetic. There are physiological, psychological and social causes behind many cases of obesity.)

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Tuesday, October 2nd, 2012 1:32pm PDT - promote requested by hpqp.

Adding video to channels (Equality) - requested by hpqp.

The issue is not with the letter, its how she addressed the letter. Clearly she showed everyone in her office which convinced her it was a big enough problem to tell national tv. The message she tells is of a victim and everyone around her making her out to be a victim. This was a private letter she shared to show that he was a bad man and she was a victim. If she believed it was a negative thing then it should have been deleted and forgotten. If not then she could have realized, "fuck i am overweight and unhealthy and its become a noticeable problem, maybe i should do something about it."



I was lucky enough to have a step brother who inspired me to get off my ass. He had a doctors appointment to discuss his health and the doctor told him in so many words that he was fat. Instead of becoming the victim he has lost over 200lbs and is almost a candidate for skin surgery. I was technically obese at 235lbs and have since lost over 40 lbs in fat.



Stop being victims and get off your ass... Its been proven to work for thousands of years....

um, he didn;t say anything wrong. what he said, he said politely. i guess obese has become a 'mean' word? well she's obese, and people should keep calling her obese until she breaks her denial and decides its a problem worth fixing

upvote bcuz of she's pathetic

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

I would describe her size as "medium" (in American sizes)

>> ^CaptainPlanet:

um, he didn;t say anything wrong. what he said, he said politely. i guess obese has become a 'mean' word? well she's obese, and people should keep calling her obese until she breaks her denial and decides its a problem worth fixing


This.

The email was carefully constructed to avoid insult. He never called her fat. She was the one to bring that up. He implied she was obese. Is suddenly it wrong to classify someone under a medical term when it's true?

For all we know, the guy was a doctor, nutritionist, personal trainer, nurse, or some other healthcare professional. Does that change the tone of the whole discussion? If it does for you, then there is a double standard at work here.

I think she has some brass balls to spin this around and bring kids into the discussion which makes this a "feel sorry for me" rant. She clearly took his email personally and offensively but didn't stop to think if it was meant to be.

The only way she is truly a "victim" is if she has a medical condition that prevents her from losing weight. She never mentions that, so I assume she's simply not working hard enough on losing the weight and isn't viewing it as an issue for her health.

Stop acting like a victim, lady. I'm feel terrible that you might've been tormented as a child and the wounds keep opening, but you're an adult now and can do something about it in a more productive way than this.

The ultimate issue is "is it a choice?" Homosexuality is not considered a "choice" and thus is not considered "fair game" for criticism. Similarly a lot of data is showing that metabolic set points are not a "choice" or at least they're determined at a young age. Granted, you could starve yourself and exercise into losing weight, but the success rates long term are very low. People who try generally get depressed because they are forcing their body to operate in a way it doesn't want to simply to conform to social norms. The parallels with homosexuality continue. I mean, gay people could act straight. They just don't want to. Further, there is little data to suggest health issues associated with weight once you control for other lifestyle choices (exercise, diet, smoking, etc). Many people exercise everyday, eat a healthy diet, lead healthy lives, and are just fat. Honestly, it's the last bastion of socially accepted prejudice.

you;re just wrong. nobody Needs to be obese (rare genetic diseases aside)
you're wrong to tell people they need to be obese
and your wrong to insinuate that healthy eating / exercise makes people depressed
eating well and being active make people feel good. know what makes people depressed? obesity, its a deadly sin, by which i mean you will be dead, decades early, if u decide being healthy is just not a choice you can make.

>> ^bmacs27:

The ultimate issue is "is it a choice?" ... Many people exercise everyday, eat a healthy diet, lead healthy lives, and are just fat. Honestly, it's the last bastion of socially accepted prejudice.

@CaptainPlanet I didn't say eating a healthy diet and exercise makes people depressed. I'm saying caloric restriction and exercise, over the long term (often the only way to maintain weight loss) makes people depressed. Calling caloric restriction healthy eating is a joke. If it worked for you, good on you. I know many for whom it simply hasn't worked. What works better is becoming comfortable with your body, exercising, and healthy eating over the long term. It often doesn't shed the weight, but you end up healthier and happier. The problem I have is with using the scale, or BMI, or waist size, or any other bullshit metric to measure health. The two simply don't correlate. I have a friend that was the pull-up champion at his gym that was qualified as "obese" by BMI.

your "parallels with homosexuality" are offensively idiotic. hiding behind the disenfranchised to justify lack of personal responsibility... i couldn;t give fuck all if everyone in this country wanted to eat themselves into an early grave, but what the fuck does that have to do with sex? how the hell is becoming healthy some crazy magical thing - WELL THE GAYS COULD ACT STRAIGHT?!??! thank god your on the other side of the internet right now

(edit) and BMI, waist size, the scale, these all have no correlation with your health(?).... but doing the most pull-ups, thats the real key..????
if you can stomach it, the information is all there, having a +30 bmi will kill you early. not that we need you breathing all the air anyway
>> ^bmacs27:
...gay people could act straight...

Yeah she is obese. How does pointing out the obvious help anybody? You think he wrote this email to her because perhaps it had never occured to her to lose weight? I'm not saying obesity is ok but honestly girls have a bad enough negative body image without people pointing out the flaws. Her weight doesn't effect anybody outside of her family so don't be a creep and write emails pretending that she's a bad role model or some shit.

The email was out of line and should not have been sent. Her response was done with class.


Her weight issue is hers and hers alone. WE all judge each other all the time and it is wrong.

Her response was out of line and should not have been aired. The email was done with class.

Her weight issue affects the people around here. WE all pay more for health care and it is wrong.

@CaptainPlanet I'm drawing the connection so people could relate to why it is wrong to be prejudiced against the overweight. Yes, they could act straight, but they would be miserable. Just like some fat people could maintain weight loss, but be miserable. I'm saying both behavior sets are psycho/neurological in origin, and thus are difficult to really describe as a "choice." The data on +30 BMIs, and in fact using BMI as a health metric more generally has been largely discredited. They often didn't do things like control for smoking, or diet, or exercise. People that eat healthily, exercise, and otherwise make healthy life choices can still be fat, but be healthy. I know this from personal experience. The fact is with prolonged caloric restriction your body can become uncomfortable with the weight loss. It will instead go into "starvation mode" and convert the few calories you provide it into fat to replace the stores. Meanwhile, it deprives your nervous system of needed energy and you become depressed. Thus, you make yourself miserable, and don't lose any weight, and there is nothing you can do about it but become comfortable with who you are. Don't worry. It gets better.

I don't know what I said that deserved your reaction, but frankly your kind of acting like a dick about it.

The normalization of obesity is a problem. The letter while technically unkind was done in a calm and constructive manner.
This woman IS in the public eye, and she does have the capacity to change her appearance.

People in this thread have drawn all sorts of parallels that just do not work, such as homosexuality.
A proper parallel would be something that is negative to her health, negative to the health of those that choose to follow her example, and something that is remediable...
Her obesity, by overwhelming odds is likely to be a behavioral issue, not a medical issue.

Therefore a more proper parallel would be her smoking while in front of the camera. Its not healthy, it is difficult but possible to modify the behavior, and it sets a poor example.
Do we bully people every time we tell them not to smoke? This woman did not appreciate being eluded to as fat. End of story, this guy wrote her a letter. He didn't soapbox in front of her kids school.

>> ^scannex:

The normalization of obesity is a problem. The letter while technically unkind was done in a calm and constructive manner.
This woman IS in the public eye, and she does have the capacity to change her appearance.
People in this thread have drawn all sorts of parallels that just do not work, such as homosexuality.
A proper parallel would be something that is negative to her health, negative to the health of those that choose to follow her example, and something that is remediable...
Her obesity, by overwhelming odds is likely to be a behavioral issue, not a medical issue.
Therefore a more proper parallel would be her smoking while in front of the camera. Its not healthy, it is difficult but possible to modify the behavior, and it sets a poor example.
Do we bully people every time we tell them not to smoke? This woman did not appreciate being eluded to as fat. End of story, this guy wrote her a letter. He didn't soapbox in front of her kids school.


If millions lose weight by exercise and eating right and a few are clinically depressed because of it, I think that speaks to a psychological/neurological issue.

Or, they just haven't found the right foods to eat. I'd go insane if I ate rice cakes everyday, but it's not my body's fault that I'm depressed.

Edgeman, eating causes the release dopamine among other things. The clinical depression is a result of doing less of something your brain likes doing. Fat cells themselves also upregulate chemicals that increase the desire to eat, perpetuating the problem.
You however are citing the Solution to a problem AS the problem. (the problem beaing: eating as a key necessary trigger of hapiness in the individual). The solution, getting your weight under control is not what needs to be avoided here.

Again, this parallels perfectly to smoking. People become irritable/depressed/despondent if they fail, if they try and quit that behavior too. However, we still encourage people to stop smoking.
It is important that they stop for their health, and it, in terms of those in the public eye is a meaningful thing to avoid as a rolemodel.

Again, they are not depressed by weightloss, they are depressed by failing to partake in the dangerous/excessive behavior that causes pleasure. This neuro/chemical imbalance is something we have remedies for. Thanks Pharma!

"Your words mean nothing to me", she says as she holds back tears.

You guys aren't listening to what I'm saying. There is nothing wrong with eating right and exercising. I have a problem with caloric restriction, or as it is commonly called "dieting." Further, I have a problem with judging health from weight or BMI. There is very little data to back that up, and in fact the data suggest that a low BMI is actually more problematic than a moderately high 30ish BMI in terms of life expectancy. My issue is that it's been so ingrained in people to associate weight loss (an aesthetic issue) with fitness (a health issue). There are plenty of people that are fit, and no matter what they do, will carry extra weight.

To me "eating right" means eating healthy foods, e.g. whole foods, fruits, vegetables, proteins as your primary nutrition rather than fatty and heavily sweetened foods. Exercise is the most important part of the equation. The data shows that so long as you are not sedentary you can pretty much eat and weigh whatever with little to no health consequence.

The depression does not come simply from the lack of eating, and thus the cessation of a rewarding activity. It comes from the diversion of energy away from active use (e.g. in the nervous system) and towards the restocking of fat stores. In other words, you'll never lose weight, and instead will just be bummed out all the time.

You talk of "millions of people" that have successfully lost weight. I'd like to see a data that shows a diet emphasizing caloric restriction leading to long term reductions in weight. Every study I've seen shows that diets of that sort yield short term weight loss although subjects generally reacquire the weight within a year of stopping the diet, and report depression during the diet. Prove me wrong.

Seriously people? fucking seriously?

Do you even realize how hypocritical it is to justify this guy's letter with a self-righteous lecture about the dangers of obesity?
Take a second to think about how TV "role models" usually look (or people "in the public eye" as scannex puts it).
What planet have you been living on where the "normalization of obesity" has become a problem?

The nerve you would have to have to suggest in a letter that this woman is too fat to be shown on TV is only surpassed by the ignorance of believing that it would actually serve as a better example for our children.

It goes to show how little most people understand of the psychology of eating disorders.

Man, I can only dream of a day when all tv personalities are fit, imagine... utopia...
sigh





>> ^scannex:

The normalization of obesity is a problem.

^ duh ninja is right.. obesity, and the normalization there of, is definitely Not a problem. srsly ninja?

Ahh women. Our culture reminds them on every magazine cover, advert and movie that if they aren't thin they're a nobody. However the obese must have not got this plainly obvious message. They must not know that a)they are fat and/or b)being fat is not necessarily healthy or even c)they know but just don't care.

It is most certainly my duty, as a random stranger, to notify and remind(a)(b) the obese that they are indeed fat and they should consider not being fat. In the case of (c) I will shame them by implying they are a poor role model and I will assume their obesity is caused by laziness unless they reveal all personal details pertaining to their overweight condition.

Nobody is suggesting that there is not a problem with obesity in America (or really most of the 1st world tbh). The solution is not to write rude emails pointing out the obvious though. Even though she decided to "go public" I still don't really see why its my business. Consider walking up to somebody in the street and making the same comments. Would you not expect to get slapped? and a poor role model? Please, as if some 6 yr old is gonna see her on TV and aspire to be fat. Get real.

You're an idiot. That's a medical term.>> ^CaptainPlanet:

^ duh ninja is right.. obesity, and the normalization there of, is definitely Not a problem. srsly ninja?

How is this news?

>> ^phyman:
How is this news?
I'm not interested in watching the video, but it seems like the answer is "because she put it there."

My 2 cents.

The writer of the email was clearly being condescending. I mean, he asks her what kind of role model she thinks she is to young girls as if being a good role model is based solely on appearance and not, for instance, on things like the fact that she's a highly successful working mom.

On the other hand, I'm a bit disturbed at the idea that pointing out that someone is overweight is somehow now "bullying." Is pointing out that so-called "supermodels" are too skinny also bullying?

All in all, I think the whole thing is a bit over-dramatized. All I can think of when I watch this vid is this clip.

You keep using the word diet as something you can just go on and off of. That's the problem; 'Going on a diet' implies that it's temporary. What's needed to eat and live healthy is a permanent lifetstyle change. In other words, you don't stop the diet. The previous diet is what led to getting overweight in the first place, so of course they gain the weight back if they start eating like that again. Exercise all you want, if you take in more calories than you expend, you will gain weight. If you expend more calories than you take in, you will lose weight. It doesn't matter if you have a problem with that, or if people get depressed, or if you just straight up don't think it's a health issue (it is), that's how it works. That's why this argument takes place when this issue is brought up. It really is just a matter of will power and education on nutrition. How much will power's needed depends on the person, along with their knowledge on nutrition and eating well. Breaking these long standing habits can be incredibly tough, but not impossible.

There's a lot of grey area in the discussion of being overweight and healthy/fit/etc. If you have terrible eating habits, exercise will only make things a bit better; it wont magically counteract all the negative aspects of your body composition, or of the food you eat. The effect food can have on a person astronomically outweighs the potential effects of exercise. That's in no way saying exercise is pointless, but if you're diet's not in check, the exercise alone is like ordering a diet coke with your ten cheeseburgers.
>> ^bmacs27:

You guys aren't listening to what I'm saying. There is nothing wrong with eating right and exercising. I have a problem with caloric restriction, or as it is commonly called "dieting." Further, I have a problem with judging health from weight or BMI. There is very little data to back that up, and in fact the data suggest that a low BMI is actually more problematic than a moderately high 30ish BMI in terms of life expectancy. My issue is that it's been so ingrained in people to associate weight loss (an aesthetic issue) with fitness (a health issue). There are plenty of people that are fit, and no matter what they do, will carry extra weight.
To me "eating right" means eating healthy foods, e.g. whole foods, fruits, vegetables, proteins as your primary nutrition rather than fatty and heavily sweetened foods. Exercise is the most important part of the equation. The data shows that so long as you are not sedentary you can pretty much eat and weigh whatever with little to no health consequence.
The depression does not come simply from the lack of eating, and thus the cessation of a rewarding activity. It comes from the diversion of energy away from active use (e.g. in the nervous system) and towards the restocking of fat stores. In other words, you'll never lose weight, and instead will just be bummed out all the time.
You talk of "millions of people" that have successfully lost weight. I'd like to see a data that shows a diet emphasizing caloric restriction leading to long term reductions in weight. Every study I've seen shows that diets of that sort yield short term weight loss although subjects generally reacquire the weight within a year of stopping the diet, and report depression during the diet. Prove me wrong.

>> ^NinjaInHeat:

Take a second to think about how TV "role models" usually look (or people "in the public eye" as scannex puts it).
What planet have you been living on where the "normalization of obesity" has become a problem?


>> ^scannex:
The normalization of obesity is a problem.




Oh, I don't know... how about this planet? Where the USA is the fattest developed country in the world?
Your text to link...

So yes... "F**cking seriously".
You must be daft if you cannot discern between healthy weight, a supermodel and someone who is obese. Being underweight is dangerous as well, and you drawing the conclusion as to that is what we are after is silly.
This was a private letter SHE made public. You say that the opinion is that she is too fat to be on TV. Not the case, and not the suggestion of the letter. This PRIVATE letter was a plea to this woman's sensibilities in fashion less sugarcoated than she is used to.

>> ^Jinx:


Nobody is suggesting that there is not a problem with obesity in America (or really most of the 1st world tbh). The solution is not to write rude emails pointing out the obvious though. Even though she decided to "go public" I still don't really see why its my business. Consider walking up to somebody in the street and making the same comments. Would you not expect to get slapped? and a poor role model? Please, as if some 6 yr old is gonna see her on TV and aspire to be fat. Get real.


So what is the solution? Ignore it? That tactic was working great for her and her health so far I'm sure.

You don't get it. It isn't about aspiring to be fat. That's a hyperbolic conclusion you are drawing to further your point. Normalization and idolization are not synonyms.

Oh, and consider walking up to a woman smoking while pregnant on the street, or hey, a little less extreme, in a playground to give them a piece of your mind. Happens every day. People voicing their opinion is a pretty common thing, hence our stupid discussion under a video.

>> ^bmacs27:

Every study I've seen shows that diets of that sort yield short term weight loss although subjects generally reacquire the weight within a year of stopping the diet, and report depression during the diet. Prove me wrong.


Ok...
Weight Watchers Success Stories
People failing to maintain their diets and permanently alter their eating and exercise behavior after a successful diet is behavioral.
Failing at anything can cause depression. This is not a complex phenomenon. Cessation of an activity you previously relied on for happiness is bound to make you less happy (biochemically if nothing else), and like quitting smoking will always be a difficult temptation.

@Duncan And yet this is the commonly suggested course of action for those overweight. Eat 1000-1200 calories a day, and exercise. That's a recipe for disaster. Further, your claim that if you intake fewer calories than you expend you will lose weight. This is not necessarily true. Your body is not a bunsen burner. That's why we have terms like "metabolism" as in so and so has a high metabolism or a low metabolism. In other words, some people can eat and eat and eat, and their body will simply convert the excess energy into heat. For others, that energy is stored as fat. My claim is that there are people for whom prolonged caloric restriction will not result in continued weight loss. Instead the body will continue to store the energy it receives as fat and your brain will be deprived of the energy it needs to allow activity levels necessary to burn anything off. Even with continued restriction. There are cases (e.g. with OCD patients) that prolonged weight loss can be achieved, but often it's simply impossible.

With regards to "life-style change," I agree. It's necessary. However, losing weight isn't. Much more success has been reported encouraging an active lifestyle. Eat until you are sated. That's okay (assuming you don't have a broken sensory system in that regard). People that pursue this approach will usually not lose weight, but they will become healthy. All of their bio-markers (e.g. cholesterol) often come into check. They are active, happy, and healthy. Yet still, people would somehow feel justified sending them a letter telling fatty to get off their ass.

I'll give an example. I watched my girl eat 1200 calories a day for six months. She's 5'2" at 180. The first month of this brought her down to 165/170, but the following five brought her no further. I watched her. She measured every meal with a measuring cup. She's also a geneticist, so she knows a thing or two about the relevant biochem. She was depressed as hell, and her activity level dropped. She was miserable and didn't even really lose substantial weight.

Now, she bikes at least 10-12 hilly miles a day, swims a couple miles three times a week, and does yoga. She eats when she's hungry and stops when she's full. She eats healthily for the most part, but rewards herself with a sweet now and again. Every measure known to correlate with health shows that she is healthy despite her weight. People call her fat all the time. There's just no need. Her doctor doesn't, because many doctors these days know BMI is a bullshit measure. She's not a weird case. I mentioned by buddy the pullup champ in a previous post. The dude was vegetarian in boot camp. He doesn't have an ounce of fat on him, and can do effectively perpetual pushups. He's technically "obese." For a medical term, it's about as useful as "idiot."

The fact is evidence is mounting that your disposition towards retaining fat probably has more to do with what was eaten by your mother during pregnancy than anything you do in your lifetime (other than maybe early childhood). Your body has a weight it would like to keep, and it will succeed in keeping it. If people would just change the societal pressure towards becoming healthy rather than losing weight people doomed to carry extra pounds wouldn't have to feel like outcasts, and would probably be more likely to pursue the correct goal. Instead, most people here seem to think it's okay to berate strangers about their weight. Let them talk to their doctor. If their doctor is good with it, you probably should be too.

@scannex Dude... are you really citing a marketing campaign for weight loss pushers? I bet you I could find data that shows the effectiveness of penis enhancement pills too. If you took a few you might find you like 'em thick ;-). Try some primary literature, and I'll respond in kind.

Try to refute this claim: "Overweight or mildly obese individuals with otherwise normal bio-markers show no decrease in life expectancy from normal."

If you can't, then tell me why it is okay to berate someone about their weight knowing nothing about their health overall?

>> ^scannex:

>> ^Jinx:

Nobody is suggesting that there is not a problem with obesity in America (or really most of the 1st world tbh). The solution is not to write rude emails pointing out the obvious though. Even though she decided to "go public" I still don't really see why its my business. Consider walking up to somebody in the street and making the same comments. Would you not expect to get slapped? and a poor role model? Please, as if some 6 yr old is gonna see her on TV and aspire to be fat. Get real.

So what is the solution? Ignore it? That tactic was working great for her and her health so far I'm sure.
You don't get it. It isn't about aspiring to be fat. That's a hyperbolic conclusion you are drawing to further your point. Normalization and idolization are not synonyms.
Oh, and consider walking up to a woman smoking while pregnant on the street, or hey, a little less extreme, in a playground to give them a piece of your mind. Happens every day. People voicing their opinion is a pretty common thing, hence our stupid discussion under a video.

Oh, I'm making hyperbolic conclusions and then you equate smoking to being overweight? Being fat in a playground doesn't make the kids more at risk of heart disease.


so I guess you're right then. I dont get it. I don't get why her weight is your business if its not some wrong headed belief that she is a poor role model (that at least seemed to be the point of the email no?)

There is no easy solution. I'm not suggesting we ignore obesity or its health risks but there are right ways of tackling problems and there are the futile ways. If it was as fucking easy and emailing fat people to point out that they are fat and oh, here are the health risks then, err, why are people still overweight? So stop pretending that this email is in any way helpful. At best its tactless, at worst its cruel. Now, if I had a family member with weight problems I would consider it my place and indeed my duty to not just confront them about it, but also help them maintain a healthier lifestyle. I'd hope they'd do the same for me, but a stranger who is unwilling to invest any assistance to me beyond their critique? Fuck that. Mind your business.

>> ^bmacs27:

@scannex Dude... are you really citing a marketing campaign for weight loss pushers? I bet you I could find data that shows the effectiveness of penis enhancement pills too. If you took a few you might find you like 'em thick ;-). Try some primary literature, and I'll respond in kind.

Try to refute this claim: "Overweight or mildly obese individuals with otherwise normal bio-markers show no decrease in life expectancy from normal."

If you can't, then tell me why it is okay to berate someone about their weight knowing nothing about their health overall?


I don't what source your quote came from.
But I will happily refute it.
Here you go, from the NIH
A referenced article from Oxford
Another study
Heres the wiki for Leptin so you can understand why the release of leptin (from having too much fat) creates a vicious cycle causing you to eat more and more.
Another article on the increased risk for diabetes in the obese from you know... the journal NATURE

This is not a "jury is out" scenario. Directly and indirectly obesity causes a myriad of health complications and increased risk for debilitating and deadly diseases.

You are fighting against countless areas of research with one obscure data point from what is probably a single study that I have no source for. Even with the source its an incredibly uphill battle for you.

Being Obese is unhealthy, and except for in an EXTREME minority of genetic cases, completely modifiable.

Here's the problem...He would never have said that shit in public to her face around other people. So how is it okay for him to say it to her in private? If I heard someone say some crap like that to someone standing next to me I would beat their ass right in front of everyone. You can turn this in any direction and it would still apply. If one was very skinny and someone crudely pointed this out around others it would be awkward to the point of physical repercussions.

I don't know who you people are but let me tell you. You will never get away with what that guy said in his letter in public. The internet lets people bullshit so much but the fact is your pathetic notions are crass and you would be outed so quickly in the real world.

As she mentioned he is not her friend or family. He's a coward who hide in the email shadows. The whole point of her pointing this out is because it's national bully month to create awareness for bullying in school. A serious problem to any parent. In the real world you don't get away with comments like that - his ass would get kicked. Then where ever he said it he would be black listed and never allowed to return.

1.Yes you are.

2. Choosing to continue smoking and choosing to not take steps to get your weight under control and or stop overeating are well paralleled as demonstrated above. Feel free to argue it.

3. Being overweight in the playground DOES make them more likely to die of heart disease in later life.
Here's a quote for you.
“This is incredibly important,” said Jennifer L. Baker of the Institute of Preventive Medicine in Copenhagen, who led the research, being published today in the New England Journal of Medicine. “This is the first study to convincingly show that excess childhood weight is associated with heart disease in adulthood, or with any significant health problem in adulthood.”

To you point about it being his business etc... You know what, you're right. It isn't his business.
Does that matter? Not a whole lot. In fact he IS doing her a favor.
Hurting her feelings however unkind may be an important catalyst in getting her to change her habits.
Vanity is an INCREDIBLY powerful driving force for people.

In my view, someone who knows there is a problem and chooses to ignore it is a bigger (although perhaps socially nicer) coward.

Oh and people get away with comments like that in public all the time. I don't know what fantasy world you live in where no one chastises anyone, must be nice.

>> ^Jinx:


Oh, I'm making hyperbolic conclusions and then you equate smoking to being overweight? Being fat in a playground doesn't make the kids more at risk of heart disease.

so I guess you're right then. I dont get it. I don't get why her weight is your business if its not some wrong headed belief that she is a poor role model (that at least seemed to be the point of the email no?)
There is no easy solution. I'm not suggesting we ignore obesity or its health risks but there are right ways of tackling problems and there are the futile ways. If it was as fucking easy and emailing fat people to point out that they are fat and oh, here are the health risks then, err, why are people still overweight? So stop pretending that this email is in any way helpful. At best its tactless, at worst its cruel. Now, if I had a family member with weight problems I would consider it my place and indeed my duty to not just confront them about it, but also help them maintain a healthier lifestyle. I'd hope they'd do the same for me, but a stranger who is unwilling to invest any assistance to me beyond their critique? Fuck that. Mind your business.

>> ^Thumper:

Here's the problem...He would never have said that shit in public to her face around other people. So how is it okay for him to say it to her in private? If I heard someone say some crap like that to someone standing next to me I would beat their ass right in front of everyone. You can turn this in any direction and it would still apply. If one was very skinny and someone crudely pointed this out around others it would be awkward to the point of physical repercussions.
I don't know who you people are but let me tell you. You will never get away with what that guy said in his letter in public. The internet lets people bullshit so much but the fact is your pathetic notions are crass and you would be outed so quickly in the real world.
As she mentioned he is not her friend or family. He's a coward who hide in the email shadows. The whole point of her pointing this out is because it's national bully month to create awareness for bullying in school. A serious problem to any parent. In the real world you don't get away with comments like that - his ass would get kicked. Then where ever he said it he would be black listed and never allowed to return.

That sure is nice of you to go to prison for a stranger over something another stranger said in almost as constructive a way as possible.

It makes you sound like a violent psychopath.

He didn't bully her. He didn't show up at her office with a "Hey fatty!" sign. He didn't chase her down in other venues, he didn't persist in any way in fact.
You are applying the term bullying where it is wholly inappropriate.

There is no polite way to say that to someone. The fact still remains you WILL NOT be saying that to anyone in public and to suggest that you would is a lie. The point is that even if I didn't kick the persons ass they would be told to leave and any normal person including the establishments owners would also follow along in removing that person from the property. The police would not take pity on someone who his so crass in harassing the individual. I bet the law would even hold up that the person did in fact harass them. "Yes judge I did in fact politely encourage them to be less heavy". You are a fool to think anyone would not consider that to be rude/ crass/ completely inappropriate. Which is why you would never say it in public and you know you wouldn't. >> ^scannex:

>> ^Thumper:
Here's the problem...He would never have said that shit in public to her face around other people. So how is it okay for him to say it to her in private? If I heard someone say some crap like that to someone standing next to me I would beat their ass right in front of everyone. You can turn this in any direction and it would still apply. If one was very skinny and someone crudely pointed this out around others it would be awkward to the point of physical repercussions.
I don't know who you people are but let me tell you. You will never get away with what that guy said in his letter in public. The internet lets people bullshit so much but the fact is your pathetic notions are crass and you would be outed so quickly in the real world.
As she mentioned he is not her friend or family. He's a coward who hide in the email shadows. The whole point of her pointing this out is because it's national bully month to create awareness for bullying in school. A serious problem to any parent. In the real world you don't get away with comments like that - his ass would get kicked. Then where ever he said it he would be black listed and never allowed to return.

That sure is nice of you to go to prison for a stranger over something another stranger said in almost as constructive a way as possible.
It makes you sound like a violent psychopath.
He didn't bully her. He didn't show up at her office with a "Hey fatty!" sign. He didn't chase her down in other venues, he didn't persist in any way in fact.
You are applying the term bullying where it is wholly inappropriate.

Yup Thumper you're right. There is no polite way to say it.
Your comparison over "doing it in public" however is kinda... completely ignoring what happened here?
He did it privately over email.
You need to understand that.

He didn't try and publicly shame her. He doesn't want anything from her to enrich himself. He did not bully her.

What is "nice" to you isn't relevant. Hell, I will totally AGREE that it isn't nice. Doesn't make it worth all this hooplah that she created either by making it public, and it doesn't make being obese a good thing.

My point is why do you feel that something you would not do in front of others towards another person is somehow justified in private? It's not, it's cowardice. The fact is she doesn't know him. So even if he pulled her aside somewhere out in public and said it in private it would not be correct. I don't think he would have done that either. I mean in what situation does a stranger pull someone aside and tell them this? I can't think of one. He's hiding behind the internet. He's trolling her. It doesn't matter what words he chose to express this to her he would not have done this face to face *because for the fear of what would happen. So without that fear he act's on it and completely trolls her. That is not normal human behavior. It's internet bullying. There are further examples of where you would not do this EVEN on the internet. For instance, you would not write the creator of this site and express disapproval of their appearance now would you? The moment there is a repercussion people stay inline. It's the fact that there was no repercussion that allowed him to be so crass towards her. >> ^scannex:

Yup Thumper you're right. There is no polite way to say it.
Your comparison over "doing it in public" however is kinda... completely ignoring what happened here?
He did it privately over email.
You need to understand that.
He didn't try and publicly shame her. He doesn't want anything from her to enrich himself. He did not bully her.
What is "nice" to you isn't relevant. Hell, I will totally AGREE that it isn't nice. Doesn't make it worth all this hooplah that she created either by making it public, and it doesn't make being obese a good thing.

Yes I do think thats possible.
Just as I might try and get a drug addict clean, or a pregnant lady to stop smoking without publicly ousting her.
Sometimes the right thing isn't the nice thing.
His actions may be unnecessary, but they were not a troll and they really do not appear overly mean spirited (he could have been WAY more acerbic in his word choice).

I completely disagree that this is bullying or internet bullying. Bullying implies repeat behaviors like this definition. Your outrage in my opinion is out of scope with what actually happened.

He could have sent this letter via the USPS to the exact same effect.

I don't know what to say except again that it's pretty obvious you don't know the first thing about eating disorders.
How exactly does the American obesity problem equals the "normalization" of it? That's like saying the normalization of Ebola is a problem in Africa.

I'll give you this much, your idea of dealing with a problem is definitely an effective one.
Making a person super self-conscious about their physical appearance is a very effective way of having them change it. The problem here is that you to understand that effective doesn't necessarily equal good/positive.
Your idea of the proper way to deal with these issues is a scary one, more so for the fact you don't even realize what the implications of it are.


>> ^scannex:

>> ^NinjaInHeat:
Take a second to think about how TV "role models" usually look (or people "in the public eye" as scannex puts it).
What planet have you been living on where the "normalization of obesity" has become a problem?

>> ^scannex:
The normalization of obesity is a problem.



Oh, I don't know... how about this planet? Where the USA is the fattest developed country in the world?
Your text to link...
So yes... "F cking seriously".
You must be daft if you cannot discern between healthy weight, a supermodel and someone who is obese. Being underweight is dangerous as well, and you drawing the conclusion as to that is what we are after is silly.
This was a private letter SHE made public. You say that the opinion is that she is too fat to be on TV. Not the case, and not the suggestion of the letter. This PRIVATE letter was a plea to this woman's sensibilities in fashion less sugarcoated than she is used to.

My outrage is more about what I'm reading on this site. Usually I love the debates I read on this forum. Even if I don't agree I often find them to be informative perhaps even enlightening. Yet the majority of posts on this video appear to be in defense towards the writer. I don't believe the majority of the people posting on this particular video. I really do not believe for a moment that people are actually concerned with this gal's weight. I think they're using it to justify their right to form opinions. I firmly support such a right but in this case I find the general view to be ridiculous. It's not even close for me. I really cannot understand why a person would feel okay with sending that email. I never see or hear such behavior in my life without someone having just lost it and do not give a fuck about the consequences. It's bizarre. However I understand that it is an email and the internet allows such actions without repercussions. So the video doesn't bother me. It's reading half the posts on this particular video from peoples that I generally agree with if not I can understand the difference of opinion. This time I really can't. Where are these people who walk around thinking "look how unhealthy that person is"? "They shouldn't be allowed to be viewed by my children". Which BTW, is weird as if she conducts some health program for the local schools. His email is completely irrelevant. I also do not share the comparison you make with drug addiction. It's not even close. That woman appears to be over weight but she does not appear to be someone who I would worry their life span is significantly reduced as a result. She has a nice job and it appears that her life is together so why would anyone stick their nose in her business. Also - she's probably educated and can carry a decent conversation. Why is everyone assuming she's a retard who cannot makes decisions for herself? Drug addiction and obesity are completely different things. First of all Genetics play a huge part in obesity. Sure you might be genetically dis-positioned for addiction but one can simply avoid drugs entirely. You cannot avoid food entirely. Drug addicts are prone to crime, poor decisions, and could represent a threat to your life. In what situation does someone who's heavy represent any of these things? They don't. So you have no business enforcing your genetic standard upon them. >> ^scannex:

Yes I do think thats possible.
Just as I might try and get a drug addict clean, or a pregnant lady to stop smoking without publicly ousting her.
Sometimes the right thing isn't the nice thing.
His actions may be unnecessary, but they were not a troll and they really do not appear overly mean spirited (he could have been WAY more acerbic in his word choice).
I completely disagree that this is bullying or internet bullying. Bullying implies repeat behaviors like this definition. Your outrage in my opinion is out of scope with what actually happened.
He could have sent this letter via the USPS to the exact same effect.

Ah, blaming the victim.

It's practically the only hobby American's agree on.

I am appalled at some of the responses to this here on the Sift: "she should just take it and shut up", "yeah what's wrong telling someone they're fat" and @scannex's craptacular line of argumentation. This discussion took such a bizarro turn that even bobknight33 has more sense in his comment than a good half of the commenters!

There are several important issues at stake here:

1) Unethical behaviour should be called out, as done here, not silenced/ignored, no matter how "petty" it may seem. Silence (often enforced by shaming and/or interiorised guilt) is one of the main contributors to a culture of abuse of privilege, of bullying, humiliating, harassing, etc etc. I just wish stuff like this (the video) happened more often on TV and in the media in general. The more this kind of behaviour (be it sexist, ableist, bigoted, etc.) is called out as socially unacceptable, the less it will spread over the next generations.

2) Privilege: this guy thinks it is his place to tell a perfect stranger that she's too fat for TV, as if his small-minded opinion was worth anything. Even if it hadn't been so disgustingly condescending, he should know (lets hope that's now the case) that it's not his place to make those remarks. Even if he's a doctor, nutritionist, you name it. He's not her doctor, nor friend, and you have to be pretty fucking stupid to think you're illuminating someone on their hitherto unnoticed BMI, and even more fucking stupid to defend that as "doing her a favour".

3) Obesity is not like smoking. Yes, they are both health problems, but unlike smoking, being obese is not a behaviour. It can be caused/aggravated by certain behaviour, among many other factors. But while a behaviour can be inhibited while in front of others (e.g. not smoking in front of kids/a camera), you cannot "stop being obese". This brings out another distinction, namely that, while seeing people smoke can entice impressionable minds to do the same, seeing someone who is fat will not make one want to be fat as well. Seeing an overweight person on TV having a job or living a normal life might, on the other hand, give hope to people who are mocked and discriminated against for their weight issues, something which does not undermine in the slightest the struggle against obesity.

I could go on, but I've ranted enough as is. Suffice it to say that I fully *support what this woman and her colleagues have taken the courage to do, and hope it is a situation we will see more of in future. We can't (and shouldn't) outlaw douchebaggery, but we sure as hell can make it socially stigmatising, and we damn well should. (and unlike obesity for some, douchebaggery and hateful/hurtful ignorance is something anyone can be cured of)

/rant

Promoting this video back to the front page; last published Tuesday, October 2nd, 2012 1:32pm PDT - promote requested by hpqp.

Not comparable; models are starved by the fashion industry ("either you're a twig or you're fired/not hired" starved), whereas I doubt the network is pressuring this woman to be overweight. It would still be totally wrong to send an email to a model telling her she shouldn't be on tv/a podium because she's unhealthily skinny; that's still a personal attack.
>> ^SDGundamX:

[...] I'm a bit disturbed at the idea that pointing out that someone is overweight is somehow now "bullying." Is pointing out that so-called "supermodels" are too skinny also bullying? [...]

Well, how can I possibly counter that.
Your self asserted grasp on eating disorders far outstrips mine.
Also, Your comparison to Ebola is a ridiculous straw man that any reasonable person should be able to differentiate.
Normalization related to weightgain is the effect of a society getting ever fatter and people becoming less and less concerned with it, or less likely to avoid emulating it because it has every day prevalence and gains acceptance.
For your consideration here is Normalization

Your argument about a given method or therapy (I am not saying this guys letter was either) having a necessary outcome of positive would discredit EVERY attempt at getting someone to lose weight, as no method has 100% success or is necessarily "good/positive".

The act of pointing out that someone is heavy isn't nice. But, denying that vanity can cause people to want to change is just silly.

You trying to claim that my argument is that this is my preferred method is also silly and another straw man.

The implications/effect of this guys letter, as I am sure he is experiencing is by no means known, or reliable from individual to individual.

Every line of your post is more concerned with using falsified assertions of my position to try and better your argument all while failing to include references or anything substantive to debunk my actual arguments. It is not working.

>> ^NinjaInHeat:

I don't know what to say except again that it's pretty obvious you don't know the first thing about eating disorders.
How exactly does the American obesity problem equals the "normalization" of it? That's like saying the normalization of Ebola is a problem in Africa.
I'll give you this much, your idea of dealing with a problem is definitely an effective one.
Making a person super self-conscious about their physical appearance is a very effective way of having them change it. The problem here is that you to understand that effective doesn't necessarily equal good/positive.
Your idea of the proper way to deal with these issues is a scary one, more so for the fact you don't even realize what the implications of it are.

>> ^hpqp:


3) Obesity is not like smoking. Yes, they are both health problems, but unlike smoking, being obese is not a behaviour. It can be caused/aggravated by certain behaviour, among many other factors. But while a behaviour can be inhibited while in front of others (e.g. not smoking in front of kids/a camera), you cannot "stop being obese". This brings out another distinction, namely that, while seeing people smoke can entice impressionable minds to do the same, seeing someone who is fat will not make one want to be fat as well. Seeing an overweight person on TV having a job or living a normal life might, on the other hand, give hope to people who are mocked and discriminated against for their weight issues, something which does not undermine in the slightest the struggle against obesity.
/rant


So your counter to the point of it being a behavior, is that it is term applied as the result of a series of behaviors which is a combination of over-eating and lack of exercise?
You must be kidding.

And sorry I have to put words in your mouth above, because aside from divine intervention I am not sure what mysterious factors cause one to be obese unless you are referring to genetic disorders/thyroid problems. Have fun finding a source on what % of obese Americans that covers.

It is behavioral, and its remedy is behavioral. I certainly will not say its an EASY behavior to modify (see previous arguments on leptin/dopamine), but you need to deal with it.

Also regarding what is impressionable you are simply incorrect. If you believe a child with two overweight parents that is the result of those parents having an idle lifestyle and providing garbage food for their kids isnt impactful youre dead wrong.
But here you go, some backup for that concept. From the AACAP

No one is advocating mocking is the right thing to do. And if you think this guys letter came from a place of hate or mockery I suggest you reread it. There really is no indication of that to me. It comes from a place of concern, even if that is misguided. You want to crucify this guy for trying to (perhaps poorly) encourage this woman to lose weight and that really isn't the right ethic either.

To be fair and clarify, I want to directly address your comparison too.
You say obesity is not like smoking because, unlike smoking you cannot simply inhibit being obese in an instant.

That is not a reasonable qualification for a behavior.
By that logic, a person with a meth addiction who simply doesn't smoke meth while on camera, but exhibits all the tell tale physical signs of smoking meth would be exempt from ridicule because he cannot 'stop looking like a meth addict'. That is not reasonable.
Smoking meth in this case is a behavior. One he does not do in the public eye. The behavior of smoking has a repercussion on his appearance after he stops smoking. Similarly the behavior of overeating/being idle (I have coined this state as a behavior leading to obesity in my argument) is similar in that way.

Hopefully that clears up my analogy for you.
The ability to stop doing, or being, a given way in an instant is not a measure of what constitutes a behavior.

>> ^hpqp:

3) Obesity is not like smoking. Yes, they are both health problems, but unlike smoking, being obese is not a behaviour. It can be caused/aggravated by certain behaviour, among many other factors. But while a behaviour can be inhibited while in front of others (e.g. not smoking in front of kids/a camera), you cannot "stop being obese". This brings out another distinction, namely that, while seeing people smoke can entice impressionable minds to do the same, seeing someone who is fat will not make one want to be fat as well. Seeing an overweight person on TV having a job or living a normal life might, on the other hand, give hope to people who are mocked and discriminated against for their weight issues, something which does not undermine in the slightest the struggle against obesity.
/rant

You pretend to care for the health of others yet there is a perverse nihilistic undertone to your entire argument. The only thing in this for you is to point out that "people" should fit a mold that you and your constituents have deemed appropriate. Which furthers strengthens the overall bizarre and inconsistent view you're slinging. Shouldn't your dismissal of common morals/ sensibilities completely free you up from trying to impress or coincide with a particular group? The thing that bugs me the most is that you seem to completely ignore this person's feelings. It's as if, for the purposes of your argument having a body you have obfuscated her feelings or anyone else's for that matter. >> ^scannex:

To be fair and clarify, I want to directly address your comparison too.
You say obesity is not like smoking because, unlike smoking you cannot simply inhibit being obese in an instant.
That is not a reasonable qualification for a behavior.
By that logic, a person with a meth addiction who simply doesn't smoke meth while on camera, but exhibits all the tell tale physical signs of smoking meth would be exempt from ridicule because he cannot 'stop looking like a meth addict'. That is not reasonable.
Smoking meth in this case is a behavior. One he does not do in the public eye. The behavior of smoking has a repercussion on his appearance after he stops smoking. Similarly the behavior of overeating/being idle (I have coined this state as a behavior leading to obesity in my argument) is similar in that way.
Hopefully that clears up my analogy for you.
The ability to stop doing, or being, a given way in an instant is not a measure of what constitutes a behavior.
>> ^hpqp:
3) Obesity is not like smoking. Yes, they are both health problems, but unlike smoking, being obese is not a behaviour. It can be caused/aggravated by certain behaviour, among many other factors. But while a behaviour can be inhibited while in front of others (e.g. not smoking in front of kids/a camera), you cannot "stop being obese". This brings out another distinction, namely that, while seeing people smoke can entice impressionable minds to do the same, seeing someone who is fat will not make one want to be fat as well. Seeing an overweight person on TV having a job or living a normal life might, on the other hand, give hope to people who are mocked and discriminated against for their weight issues, something which does not undermine in the slightest the struggle against obesity.
/rant

I am not sure how my argument is nihilistic at all.
I am not sure what mold you think I am promoting, aside from not being in a state which has been, by all available science, deemed to be u healthy. (read: not obese)

I am happy to address where you think my view is inconsistent, can you please elaborate?

Re feeling: I think that is fair, to a point. But to me, the spectacle this woman made of herself for someone writing her a private communique over the internet does not warrant ANYWHERE near this attention.
She chose to shine a spotlight on something perfectly hidden, for the purpose of, I don't know... you tell me? To stop imaginary bullying (in her case explicitly here)? To not feel bad about being overweight? I really don't know anymore. Its a bizarre reaction to wantonly make a spectacle of someone suggesting you lose weight.

You pretend to care for the health of others yet there is a perverse nihilistic undertone to your entire argument. The only thing in this for you is to point out that "people" should fit a mold that you and your constituents have deemed appropriate. Which furthers strengthens the overall bizarre and inconsistent view you're slinging. Shouldn't your dismissal of common morals/ sensibilities completely free you up from trying to impress or coincide with a particular group? The thing that bugs me the most is that you seem to completely ignore this person's feelings. It's as if, for the purposes of your argument having a body you have obfuscated her feelings or anyone else's for that matter.

@scannex Okay, none of your articles whatsoever considered any other biomarkers that may be correlated with obesity, let alone other factors like socioeconomic status, other behavioral choices, etc. For example: In this plot from this article of the oxford journal of epidemiology shows that the relationship between BMI and mortality breaks down for women with a systolic blood pressure below about 150mmHg excluding morbidly obese women(those with a BMI between 40 and 75). It also shows a "protective effect," in terms of mortality risk, of obesity in men with high blood pressure.

The article cites at least 9 articles and I quote, "The associations between body weight, raised blood pressure, and mortality remain controversial." Thus, you're wrong, this is very much a "jury is still out" sort of a question.

Your views are inconsistent because you're suggesting her obesity is somehow impactful on others. If it's not that then your suggesting you're concerned for her health. If you're so concerned for her health (or others) then what about her mental health (or ours)? Arguably the most important form of health. You already admitted there is no polite way to tell a stranger that is probably already aware, that their weight is a health concern. I don't see how promoting forwardness with disregard to one's reaction/ feelings is any bit healthier. Not to mention the whole bully awareness month - which this is just a guess, but, doesn't that specifically entail "we" as a society passing stronger consideration for others feelings?

This is where we need to draw the line on the whole obesity/ drug addict comparison. There is NO NEED to throw tough love at an overweight person. Even if you succeed in pushing them to lose weight - you're changing the very foundation of personal relationships. Where does the bully draw the line at school? "Stop being so dorky?". Oh and I'm not a fan of letting our children carry such moral burdens. Their parents should lead by example. Lets not build a world where people push one another into choices even if they are good for them. Let's let freewill be freewill. If you really want to make a difference - befriend them, get close to them, within the "YOU can say that to me" walls. Actually give a shit about the person and not the idea of people. Stop treating that woman like an negative average in a large container and more like a PERSON.

Problem solved. Become their friend - follow time-tested relationship rules and then, and only then, can you relay such private and impactful information to them.

>> ^scannex:

I am not sure how my argument is nihilistic at all.
I am not sure what mold you think I am promoting, aside from not being in a state which has been, by all available science, deemed to be u healthy. (read: not obese)
I am happy to address where you think my view is inconsistent, can you please elaborate?
Re feeling: I think that is fair, to a point. But to me, the spectacle this woman made of herself for someone writing her a private communique over the internet does not warrant ANYWHERE near this attention.
She chose to shine a spotlight on something perfectly hidden, for the purpose of, I don't know... you tell me? To stop imaginary bullying (in her case explicitly here)? To not feel bad about being overweight? I really don't know anymore. Its a bizarre reaction to wantonly make a spectacle of someone suggesting you lose weight.
You pretend to care for the health of others yet there is a perverse nihilistic undertone to your entire argument. The only thing in this for you is to point out that "people" should fit a mold that you and your constituents have deemed appropriate. Which furthers strengthens the overall bizarre and inconsistent view you're slinging. Shouldn't your dismissal of common morals/ sensibilities completely free you up from trying to impress or coincide with a particular group? The thing that bugs me the most is that you seem to completely ignore this person's feelings. It's as if, for the purposes of your argument having a body you have obfuscated her feelings or anyone else's for that matter.

@bmacs27 You're using every cliche in the book. Basal Metabolic Rates vary in negligible amounts between people of the same gender, age, height, and weight. If your body doesn't get the energy it needs from an outside source, it will break down itself for fuel. And your anecdotal evidence means very little. Argue all you want about how body fat has little to do with health, but don't go saying some people can't lose it (genetic conditions notwithstanding).

>> ^scannex:

So your counter to the point of it being a behavior, is that it is term applied as the result of a series of behaviors which is a combination of over-eating and lack of exercise?
You must be kidding.
And sorry I have to put words in your mouth above, because aside from divine intervention I am not sure what mysterious factors cause one to be obese unless you are referring to genetic disorders/thyroid problems. Have fun finding a source on what % of obese Americans that covers.
It is behavioral, and its remedy is behavioral. I certainly will not say its an EASY behavior to modify (see previous arguments on leptin/dopamine), but you need to deal with it.
Also regarding what is impressionable you are simply incorrect. If you believe a child with two overweight parents that is the result of those parents having an idle lifestyle and providing garbage food for their kids isnt impactful youre dead wrong.
But here you go, some backup for that concept. From the AACAP
No one is advocating mocking is the right thing to do. And if you think this guys letter came from a place of hate or mockery I suggest you reread it. There really is no indication of that to me. It comes from a place of concern, even if that is misguided. You want to crucify this guy for trying to (perhaps poorly) encourage this woman to lose weight and that really isn't the right ethic either.

_{I realised why your comments annoyed me so much: they remind me of those MRA-holes who try to defend the missteps and/or bile of privileged/sexist people and then see them as being persecuted or "witchhunted". I can only hope I am wrong in seeing a connection.}

To the substance: you completely miss my point, go after strawmen, and then try to defend the unethical while falsely accusing the anchor and myself of persecuting a person (instead of criticising a... you guessed it, behaviour).

Yes, certain behaviour causes and/or aggravates obesity, but do you see her glamourously binge-eating junkfood while telling the news? Unlike a meth addict, there are plenty of overweight people who are overweight of no fault of their own. In fact, the example you give about obese parents having a higher chance of having obese children supports my point, not yours. Children of obese parents have a higher risk of being obese genetically, as well as environmentally, and that has nothing to do with imitating the parents' behaviour (but it's their fault, right? They should just exercise and not eat what their parents feed them, right?). Of course the parents who feed their children junkfood are responsible for their child's obesity, but what does that have to do with an overweight woman being on TV? Not to mention that even that can be more complex, since there are socio-economic factors, what with the US's terrible education system and the fact that its cheapest high-calorie food (i.e. what poor/hungry people will buy) is 98% corn-syrup (yes, I made that stat up, but the point remains). Finally, obesity can be a side-product of mental health issues / eating disorders (but then maybe you're the kind of ignorant douche who'd tell people with depression to just stop wallowing in self-pity and be happy; I hope not).

You go on in your second comment to, on your own admission, redefine what a behaviour is so it can suit your argument. Say the following phrase, out loud if need be, to realise how ridiculous your argument is:

"The woman on the TV is behaving/being overweight/fat/obese". See what I mean?

Finally, you accuse her of "wanting to crucify the guy". Did you even read my points 1) & 2) above (you know, the ones you ignored in your answer)? The "guy" is not being attacked (you'll note he has been left anonymous), what he is saying/doing is. His letter is being taken as an example to call out a certain kind of behaviour, one which is rampant in our society, and doing much harm. Whether his letter is a well-intentioned yet ignorant expression of misplaced concern (at best, and highly unlikely) or a surreptitious piece of condescending shaming (much more likely*) is irrelevant. It's anti-bullying month, and she's saying "people, don't do this, and here's why".

Your more recent comment is a perfect example of why what she's doing is of utmost importance:

the spectacle this woman made of herself for someone writing her a private communique over the internet does not warrant ANYWHERE near this attention.
She chose to shine a spotlight on something perfectly hidden, for the purpose of, I don't know... you tell me? To stop imaginary bullying (in her case explicitly here)? To not feel bad about being overweight? I really don't know anymore. Its a bizarre reaction to wantonly make a spectacle of someone suggesting you lose weight.

If what he said was not reprehensible, who cares if it's made public (note once again that no names are named)? Shaming people or projecting one's narrowmindedness on them is all fine, but shhh, don't shed light on it! It's just a private message on the internet, it does no harm! (because we all know that there is no bullying, shaming, sexism, etc. on the internet. Nuh-uh)

When only one side of an exchange says "shhh, don't tell anyone about this, it's private" you usually have a bad situation; and the fact that you would defend the letter-writer and his "right" to not have his error called out does not suggest anything good about your own mindset, either.

In conclusion, it is all the more to this woman's (and her husband's/colleagues') credit that she/they took a "seemingly" (to the thickest out there) innocent letter to expose this form of abuse; a harmful remark need not be shocking or particularly vulgar to leave its mark, and it can even come from good intentions. Maybe some people watching will realise that the words they themselves speak/write are harmful, even if not intentionally, and will be more aware of it in future, while others might realise that the words they heard/read were not so innocent after all, and that they should stop beating themselves up for feeling guilt/shame/self-hate when in fact they've been being worn down by ignorant and/or hurtful attacks.

_{*It would be quite easy to analyse just how ignorant and condescending this letter is, not to mention borderline sexist (try imagining this person writing the same letter to Chris Christie, for example, replacing "girls" with "boys"). Analysis starter kit for you: "choice/habit/lifestyle", and the cornerstone phrase "Surely you don't..."}

Bmacs You are moving the goalposts.
You say above that your key gripe is in using BMI to approximate health. Not the likelihood of ones imminent demise.
Lets clear this up.
1. You are making a conversation about morbidity about mortality.
2. You are dealing with data specific to BMI as it relates to Blood pressure and mortality as it specifically relates to hypertensive individuals. Is your suggestion that High blood pressure and cardiac events are the only risks involved with obesity? What about things that don't kill you but directly impact the quality of your life? Thinking diabeties here, among other things.
3. You seem to be trying to somehow debunk the concept that obesity has ANY negative health consequences by dismissing the other articles cited.
4. What biomarkers are you concerned with. What study are you focused on? There are plenty of studies surrounding biomarkers for obesity and comorbitidy. Here is a nature article directly citing that.

What are you actually suggesting here? Obesity is causal to NO life threatening or impacting diseases? That it has NO negative health consequences?
>> ^bmacs27:

@scannex Okay, none of your articles whatsoever considered any other biomarkers that may be correlated with obesity, let alone other factors like socioeconomic status, other behavioral choices, etc. For example: In this plot from this article of the oxford journal of epidemiology shows that the relationship between BMI and mortality breaks down for women with a systolic blood pressure below about 150mmHg excluding morbidly obese women(those with a BMI between 40 and 75). It also shows a "protective effect," in terms of mortality risk, of obesity in men with high blood pressure.
The article cites at least 9 articles and I quote, "The associations between body weight, raised blood pressure, and mortality remain controversial." Thus, you're wrong, this is very much a "jury is still out" sort of a question.

It is for me. I'm working on it though, 5 kilos off so far..
>> ^hpqp:
being obese is not a behaviour.

>> ^gwiz665:

It is for me. I'm working on it though, 5 kilos off so far..
>> ^hpqp:
being obese is not a behaviour.


It's still a condition and not a behaviour. Eating (healthily or not), exercising (or couchwarming with one's posterior), etc., those are behaviours. As for a being a fatcat like you, well now that's just plain attitude.

@scannex The claim is that many of the negative health consequences associated with obesity, e.g. cardiac arrest, are in fact dependent on other factors with which obesity is commonly comorbid. I showed you a case in which less hypertensive adult women showed no effect of BMI on mortality across the board. Your studies failed to address that so far. Even in the latest, it shows that many of the complications involve comorbidity, not obesity in its own right. Even when it talks about diabetes it talks about the protective effect of vitamin E. Now, if you want to start talking about joint replacements or whatever, fine, but then we should probably tell people to be careful about their morning run too.

Certainly didn't take you long to resort to personal attacks. Sorry I annoy you.
Congratulations, you annoy me.
1. Your connection is ridiculous. I must somehow be privileged or sexist to have this view?

2. I guess I cannot figure out your point, since I only directly dealt with #3 in your post it sure sounded like "because she cannot turn off being fat, its nothing like smoking". Your other points are you soapboxing about how you want the world to be and are not something I am likely to convince you about.

3. She needs to binge eat in front of the camera to draw the conclusion that she overeats? I completely disagree with you that SHE is in a situation where being overweight is a necessity.
A point I will concede to: It is WILDLY more expensive to healthily than to eat garbage. Being on a local TV program however makes me think she is likely able to afford healthier choices.
3b. Please feel free to provide some hard numbers on the incidence of genetic obesity

4. I redefined behavior following you redefining behavior as essentially a state one can inhibit in the presence of others. Obesity is a behavioral problem. Feel free to use meriam webster if that link is insufficient for you.

5. I didn't ignore 1, and 2 of your post I just didn't reply to it. I don't agree with you. Period. It is tangential to our argument and while valid arguments will further take it off topic.I will say that you ascribe such heightened value to everything it makes me think you are on the brink of a nervous breakdown.

6. What do I care if what she said was not reprehensible? To be blunt, she cites this as a bullying event. It isn't. That is inaccurate. Its becoming the first warcry of those with hurt feelings. My main problem with it is that doing this has the effect of DEVALUING the term, and often when that happens people become desensitized to it. Not every statement is bullying. Not everyone who hears a negative utterance was bullied.

7. One said wasn't saying Shh. One side was privately making a statment. Voicing an opinion, however dickish. Was it his place? Nope. Was it nice? Nope. Was it his right? Yes if you live in any of the 50 states it is his right. A lot of assholes do things with words, like the westboro baptist church and gay soldiers funerals. When it reaches a point of bullying things need to be done (and in the westboro case something WAS done to stop them). That's a good thing. That differentiation between systemic hatred and one guy writing an email NEEDS to be made clear.

Last to your example of Chris Christie, people are BRUTAL to that guy. He gets his share of mail I assure you. People give him shit for the exact same reason of being int he public eye as well. The sexist/privelaged thing is just wild speculation on your part that only makes an angry situation seem angrier. That says a lot about you and your mindset, too.

>> ^hpqp:

Words

Direct question then.
Is it your stance that claiming there are negative health consequences from being obese is erroneous?
Is it your stance that there is insufficent data to show a causal link between being significantly overweight (obese) and health problems?

>> ^bmacs27:

@scannex The claim is that many of the negative health consequences associated with obesity, e.g. cardiac arrest, are in fact dependent on other factors with which obesity is commonly comorbid. I showed you a case in which less hypertensive adult women showed no effect of BMI on mortality across the board. Your studies failed to address that so far. Even in the latest, it shows that many of the complications involve comorbidity, not obesity in its own right. Even when it talks about diabetes it talks about the protective effect of vitamin E. Now, if you want to start talking about joint replacements or whatever, fine, but then we should probably tell people to be careful about their morning run too.

I'm typically not one for anecdotal evidence myself, but I don't need to rely on it. There is very little data on successful techniques for long term weight loss. Here's an example. Now, not everyone will interpret these results in the same way that I do. On my reading, people that maintained weight loss needed to check their weight, reduce their fat intake, and expend more energy than people that are naturally weight stable at that weight. In fact, people that lost weight, and regained it had effectively the same habits as people that are weight stable at the lower weight. In other words, weight stable fat people and weight stable thin people exercise and eat the same amounts. Granted, there were some that were able to maintain this increased activity level and highly restrictive diet, however I would suspect if you were to investigate that group you would likely find a higher incidence of psychological issues surrounding body-image, and likely an increased incidence of OCD. Now if your claim is true, the people that lost weight down to an average of 167 pounds or so (the average weight of the weight stable controls), should have been able to have equivalent habits to those controls and maintain that weight as their BMR should be equivalent. Clearly the data shows your claim to be false. They need to maintain an increased activity level and lower fat intake in order to maintain the same weight.

>> ^Duncan:

@bmacs27 You're using every cliche in the book. Basal Metabolic Rates vary in negligible amounts between people of the same gender, age, height, and weight. If your body doesn't get the energy it needs from an outside source, it will break down itself for fuel. And your anecdotal evidence means very little. Argue all you want about how body fat has little to do with health, but don't go saying some people can't lose it (genetic conditions notwithstanding).

OK sure, being obese is not a behavior, but getting can certainly be. Being obese is a state. But staying obese can be a lack of proper actions, which is also a behavior.
>> ^hpqp:

>> ^gwiz665:
It is for me. I'm working on it though, 5 kilos off so far..
>> ^hpqp:
being obese is not a behaviour.

It's still a condition and not a behaviour. Eating (healthily or not), exercising (or couchwarming with one's posterior), etc., those are behaviours. As for a being a fatcat like you, well now that's just plain attitude.

I wouldn't bother fighting this point with him gwiz. If you do a ctrl-f on the page, people have been pretty consistently calling it a behavioral problem, which you agree it is or at least can be.
Hes just trying to use semantics to discredit an argument... for some reason.
>> ^gwiz665:

OK sure, being obese is not a behavior, but getting can certainly be. Being obese is a state. But staying obese can be a lack of proper actions, which is also a behavior.
>> ^hpqp:
>> ^gwiz665:
It is for me. I'm working on it though, 5 kilos off so far..
>> ^hpqp:
being obese is not a behaviour.

It's still a condition and not a behaviour. Eating (healthily or not), exercising (or couchwarming with one's posterior), etc., those are behaviours. As for a being a fatcat like you, well now that's just plain attitude.

My claim is that there is insufficient data to show a causal link between being significantly overweight (within reason, say BMI < 40) and negative health consequences when controlling for other known detrimental behaviors and health risk factors. That said, there is certainly an interaction effect whereas a higher BMI can tend to exacerbate underlying health issues/comorbidities. That is, it is erroneous to look at a fat person and tell them that they are necessarily unhealthy without having a more nuanced understanding of their overall health, other risk factors and activity levels.

Further, I believe it is erroneous to claim that long term weight loss is an achievable goal in all individuals, and that instead encouragement should be directed towards improvement in the overall health of the individual rather than emphasizing the primary goal of weight loss. Even if it were clear beyond all doubt that obesity directly caused the negative health effects it is psychologically pragmatic to avoid conflating body-image issues and health concerns. Finally, from an etiquette standpoint, it is inappropriate and counterproductive to comment on the health consequences of the behavior of an individual unless you are employed by that individual as a health professional or are otherwise a close, concerned acquaintance of that individual.

In other words saying, "you fatties shouldn't be on TV, think of the children," isn't exactly productive nor appropriate.

Clear enough?

Cheers. At least you are attempting some objectivity.

>> ^scannex:

Direct question then.
Is it your stance that claiming there are negative health consequences from being obese is erroneous?
Is it your stance that there is insufficent data to show a causal link between being significantly overweight (obese) and health problems?
>> ^bmacs27:
@scannex The claim is that many of the negative health consequences associated with obesity, e.g. cardiac arrest, are in fact dependent on other factors with which obesity is commonly comorbid. I showed you a case in which less hypertensive adult women showed no effect of BMI on mortality across the board. Your studies failed to address that so far. Even in the latest, it shows that many of the complications involve comorbidity, not obesity in its own right. Even when it talks about diabetes it talks about the protective effect of vitamin E. Now, if you want to start talking about joint replacements or whatever, fine, but then we should probably tell people to be careful about their morning run too.

Cheers to you as well Bmacs, while we disagree on that point I appreciate the conversation.
I think we are at an impasse however, and will need to agree to disagree.
The best to you though.

While I agree we might not change each others' minds I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on which point in my last post you explicitly disagree with.

You believe it is trivial to jump from BMI to the healthiness of an individual? Would you stand by that claim in the case of, for example, extremely muscular athletes? Arnold has a BMI around 33 (Obese), is he doomed to future health complications as a result? I'm honestly shocked that someone that seems to keep appraised of the literature would put so much emphasis on such a flawed measure of overall health. Clearly there are interacting risk factors, no?

>> ^scannex:

Cheers to you as well Bmacs, while we disagree on that point I appreciate the conversation.
I think we are at an impasse however, and will need to agree to disagree.
The best to you though.

Well no matter what side of the argument you support, the one thing most of us can agree on is that Capt Planet is still an asshole.

Thank you for clarifying. Yes of course that was the part of the argument I meant. The latter half statement you made is something I agree is not productive or appropriate.

Re the trivial jump: BMI is a imperfect scale to be sure. It does not account for exceptionally muscular people among other things. I think at a certain point we got disjointed on just what we were arguing with one another.
Perhaps my fault. In short my stance is this. BMI is not a clear indicator of much of anything. It, under many circumstances can provide excellent early warning or, in cases where people are already known to be overweight (clearly not muscular) provide a scale on which to measure the severity of their problem.
Details matter and circumstance matter, I would be a fool not to agree.

My specific question though was based on my deduction that your stance was: In people who are in the overwhelming majority (being that there are way more properly assessed clinically obese than body builders)that obesity was not a major risk factor for a myriad of other diseases.

If that was the wrong assessment of your position I will be overjoyed to hear it.

>> ^bmacs27:

While I agree we might not change each others' minds I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on which point in my last post you explicitly disagree with.
You believe it is trivial to jump from BMI to the healthiness of an individual? Would you stand by that claim in the case of, for example, extremely muscular athletes? Arnold has a BMI around 33 (Obese), is he doomed to future health complications as a result? I'm honestly shocked that someone that seems to keep appraised of the literature would put so much emphasis on such a flawed measure of overall health. Clearly there are interacting risk factors, no?
>> ^scannex:
Cheers to you as well Bmacs, while we disagree on that point I appreciate the conversation.
I think we are at an impasse however, and will need to agree to disagree.
The best to you though.

Of course it's a risk factor. I too would be a fool not to agree. I just think that there are confounding factors that make the health consequences of a particular BMI difficult to unravel. Thus, we should avoid playing doctor for people that likely already have doctors.

>> ^scannex:

Thank you for clarifying. Yes of course that was the part of the argument I meant. The latter half statement you made is something I agree is not productive or appropriate.
Re the trivial jump: BMI is a imperfect scale to be sure. It does not account for exceptionally muscular people among other things. I think at a certain point we got disjointed on just what we were arguing with one another.
Perhaps my fault. In short my stance is this. BMI is not a clear indicator of much of anything. It, under many circumstances can provide excellent early warning or, in cases where people are already known to be overweight (clearly not muscular) provide a scale on which to measure the severity of their problem.
Details matter and circumstance matter, I would be a fool not to agree.
My specific question though was based on my deduction that your stance was: In people who are in the overwhelming majority (being that there are way more properly assessed clinically obese than body builders)that obesity was not a major risk factor for a myriad of other diseases.
If that was the wrong assessment of your position I will be overjoyed to hear it.
>> ^bmacs27:
While I agree we might not change each others' minds I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on which point in my last post you explicitly disagree with.
You believe it is trivial to jump from BMI to the healthiness of an individual? Would you stand by that claim in the case of, for example, extremely muscular athletes? Arnold has a BMI around 33 (Obese), is he doomed to future health complications as a result? I'm honestly shocked that someone that seems to keep appraised of the literature would put so much emphasis on such a flawed measure of overall health. Clearly there are interacting risk factors, no?
>> ^scannex:
Cheers to you as well Bmacs, while we disagree on that point I appreciate the conversation.
I think we are at an impasse however, and will need to agree to disagree.
The best to you though.

hey scannex, i wish i'd been here to back u up through this, yikes! big props on the civility of your rhetoric - and for anyone who thinks mentioning a weight issue is out of line, i would suggest that this thread itself could yield a positive result in someones behavior. I know it's made me rethink my responsibility to my health.
the valuable thing here is the discourse, and valuable discourse isn't always easy to swallow. i see a lot of people on this thread getting heated, and have to wonder if theyr not just slinging their personal issues into the mix.
so, what we dont know is how this anchor has been working to fix her problem, but from the tone of the email it sounds as if she has not had much success of it. if on the one hand she Has been trying to improve, this may serve as a call to re-examine those efforts. if otherwise, i would consider it a wake-up call in the nicest sense.

also, please nobody assault anyone for suggesting positive lifestyle choices, Even if those suggestions are unsolicited.

>> ^scannex:

Certainly didn't take you long to resort to personal attacks. Sorry I annoy you.
Congratulations, you annoy me.
1. Your connection is ridiculous. I must somehow be privileged or sexist to have this view?
2. I guess I cannot figure out your point, since I only directly dealt with #3 in your post it sure sounded like "because she cannot turn off being fat, its nothing like smoking". Your other points are you soapboxing about how you want the world to be and are not something I am likely to convince you about.
3. She needs to binge eat in front of the camera to draw the conclusion that she overeats? I completely disagree with you that SHE is in a situation where being overweight is a necessity.
A point I will concede to: It is WILDLY more expensive to healthily than to eat garbage. Being on a local TV program however makes me think she is likely able to afford healthier choices.
3b. Please feel free to provide some hard numbers on the incidence of genetic obesity
4. I redefined behavior following you redefining behavior as essentially a state one can inhibit in the presence of others. Obesity is a behavioral problem. Feel free to use meriam webster if that link is insufficient for you.
5. I didn't ignore 1, and 2 of your post I just didn't reply to it. I don't agree with you. Period. It is tangential to our argument and while valid arguments will further take it off topic.I will say that you ascribe such heightened value to everything it makes me think you are on the brink of a nervous breakdown.
6. What do I care if what she said was not reprehensible? To be blunt, she cites this as a bullying event. It isn't. That is inaccurate. Its becoming the first warcry of those with hurt feelings. My main problem with it is that doing this has the effect of DEVALUING the term, and often when that happens people become desensitized to it. Not every statement is bullying. Not everyone who hears a negative utterance was bullied.
7. One said wasn't saying Shh. One side was privately making a statment. Voicing an opinion, however dickish. Was it his place? Nope. Was it nice? Nope. Was it his right? Yes if you live in any of the 50 states it is his right. A lot of assholes do things with words, like the westboro baptist church and gay soldiers funerals. When it reaches a point of bullying things need to be done (and in the westboro case something WAS done to stop them). That's a good thing. That differentiation between systemic hatred and one guy writing an email NEEDS to be made clear.
Last to your example of Chris Christie, people are BRUTAL to that guy. He gets his share of mail I assure you. People give him shit for the exact same reason of being int he public eye as well. The sexist/privelaged thing is just wild speculation on your part that only makes an angry situation seem angrier. That says a lot about you and your mindset, too.
>> ^hpqp:

Words



It's a fair point to call me out on making presumptions about you and linking your comments to those I've been reading elsewhere; my apologies for that.

You cannot dissociate my first 2 points above from the third: you do not go telling strangers, even in a passive-aggressive way, that they are unfit to be in the public eye. For someone so quick to see personal attacks in comments about you, you seem rather impervious to those in the letter you defend (then again, 'tis true that I'm not very subtle when pissed). The real tangent, one I should probably not have given so much weight to, is whether or not obesity is something one can show/not show and induce simply by showing it (my argument remains valid, btw, it's just not so important as to repeat it all over, and your strawmen are so obvious as to no longer require pointing out).

Your point as I understand it is twofold: the letter-writer has a right to send the anchor his personal criticism and is right to do so. I only agree with the first part; he has a right to do so ((so long) as it is not harassment/threats), but she is also right to call him out for it, and point out that such behaviour is wrong, and that it participates in a culture that tolerates bullying, by letting people think it's fine to say whatever they think to whomever without questioning whether it might be hurtful or not. And nobody's saying that something like this is as bad as WBC-style bullying or systemic racist bs, just like nobody would argue that a female politician being meowed in a session by a colleague is as bad a case of sexism/misogyny as a continually harassed or beaten wife, for example. They are, however, on a spectrum with a unifying underlying belief, namely "I can and should voice my opinions/(dis)tastes about others without taking how it affects them into consideration (and society has nothing to say about it)".

The reason I projected the whole sexism/privilege thing on your comments is because they contain the same "it's harmless/no big deal" and "just poor me self-victimisation" and "what's with making a private event/exchange public?" and "you're trampling his rights!" dismissals. It was wrong of me to do so, but at least now you can understand why I did.

Speaking of projection, presumption and personal attacks, you sure are quick to jump to (and stick to) the conclusion that the anchor is overweight because she has poor lifestyle choices (the same assumptions behind the letter), which is why I (and @bmacs27) went on the tangent of "there's-more-to-obesity-than-being-a-lazy-junkfood-gobler". The assumption that an overweight person is that way because s/he choses so is insulting and ignorant in and of itself, the same way the GOP's "poor people are that way cuz they're lazy moochers who don't pull themselves up by the bootstraps" is.

As for Chris Christie, I refer to point 1) of my comment above: public denunciation all 'round!

I hope that has clarified my argument. Otherwise, I refer you to @Thumper's comments, less contentious than mine and with which I wholly agree.

I never said obesity was not (in many cases) a behavioral problem (you charge at strawmen once again). I argued that simply being obese on TV is neither displaying nor inducing/encouraging the problematic behaviour.
>> ^scannex:

I wouldn't bother fighting this point with him gwiz. If you do a ctrl-f on the page, people have been pretty consistently calling it a behavioral problem, which you agree it is or at least can be.
Hes just trying to use semantics to discredit an argument... for some reason.
>> ^gwiz665:
OK sure, being obese is not a behavior, but getting can certainly be. Being obese is a state. But staying obese can be a lack of proper actions, which is also a behavior.
>> ^hpqp:
>> ^gwiz665:
It is for me. I'm working on it though, 5 kilos off so far..
>> ^hpqp:
being obese is not a behaviour.

It's still a condition and not a behaviour. Eating (healthily or not), exercising (or couchwarming with one's posterior), etc., those are behaviours. As for a being a fatcat like you, well now that's just plain attitude.

>> ^gwiz665:

It is for me. I'm working on it though, 5 kilos off so far..
>> ^hpqp:
being obese is not a behaviour.


congrats. i was obese this time last year

hpqp I appreciate your tone shift in your last post. Sincerely.

I fear at this point that what is happening is that I have simply fielded too many concurrent arguments and I am not giving any of them the proper analysis before replying, this one included.
I am officially content to agree to disagree.

I do want to point out though that

3) Obesity is not like smoking. Yes, they are both health problems, but unlike smoking, being obese is not a behaviour . It can be caused/aggravated by certain behaviour, among many other factors.



Followed by


You go on in your second comment to, on your own admission, redefine what a behaviour is so it can suit your argument. Say the following phrase, out loud if need be, to realise how ridiculous your argument is:



I really believe it was you who created the straw man regarding behavior vs behavioral, and then claimed my rebuttal was ME attacking a strawman. Please re-examine this if you wish, and if someone else wants to carry the torch be my guest, but otherwise I will happily chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

I suggest you read more books. You have an aforementioned idiocy issue that I think you need to work on. I apologize if my suggestion of positive lifestyle choices was unsolicited. I know it can be hard to grapple with idiocy, but we are in the midst of an idiocy epidemic, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't contribute to further idiocy by voicing your opinions.

Congratulations on your weight loss.
>> ^CaptainPlanet:

also, please nobody assault anyone for suggesting positive lifestyle choices, Even if those suggestions are unsolicited.

Oh, dang. It looks like I missed a great opportunity to dialogue with hpqp about choices and personal responsibility again!

Anyway: Obesity is a disease. It is not "normal". It's a dangerous condition with proven health risks to the individual and demonstrable costs to society.
Obesity is multifactorial. Behavior, metabolic or genetic disorders, societal pressures, and the list goes on...
Regardless of the totality of the condition, behavioral factors are almost always involved, and by their nature are always controllable given adequate motivation. (They're behaviors, after all.) This doesn't mean they're enough by themselves in all cases, but they're a necessary component.
Non-behavioral factors are often controllable with medical intervention. The decision to seek medical intervention is often a controllable behavior. ("Barriers to access" acknowledged.)

>> ^hpqp:

Not comparable; models are starved by the fashion industry ("either you're a twig or you're fired/not hired" starved), whereas I doubt the network is pressuring this woman to be overweight. It would still be totally wrong to send an email to a model telling her she shouldn't be on tv/a podium because she's unhealthily skinny; that's still a personal attack.
>> ^SDGundamX:
[...] I'm a bit disturbed at the idea that pointing out that someone is overweight is somehow now "bullying." Is pointing out that so-called "supermodels" are too skinny also bullying? [...]


Seriously? You'd be against someone telling a clearly underweight supermodel that she's a role model for millions of young girls who are dangerously trying to emulate her--some through purging and others through diet pill abuse? That's bullying the supermodel? How about when a sports athlete gets caught driving drunk or engaging in other unethical behaviors (say, sending unsolicited pics of his private parts to females). Am I bullying him by sending him an email telling him how millions of kids look up to him and he needs to think about how his behavior affects them?

As others have already aptly pointed out, this was a private email. His concern seems to be with the message she's sending young female viewers. The proper response would have been the one I mentioned above--replying to his email and smacking him down about how his conception of being a proper role model only considers appearance and nothing else. Instead she went all hysterical publicly. Over one email. If this guy was sending emails every week, or if she were getting these kinds of emails from a host of people regularly, I'd see the need to do what she did.

Now, you're right--some people's obesity is medically-induced (blood-sugar issues, thyroid problems, etc.) but for the vast majority of Americans it is a lifestyle problem--too many calories and not enough exercise. Just to be clear, I'm not saying these people (of which I am one) are lazy--I'm saying they've made a choice to prioritize things other than their health. That is indeed their right and they shouldn't be disparaged for that, but at the same time we shouldn't pretend that there aren't any consequences (both to the individual and society) to that choice. And we certainly shouldn't call people who point out those consequences "bullies."

Again, just my 2 cents though. You and I don't see eye-to-eye on lots of issues (Islam, male circumcision, etc.) so I don't really expect us to agree on this issue either.

lul. dum, but i like attention


>> ^bmacs27:

I suggest you read more books. You have an aforementioned idiocy issue that I think you need to work on. I apologize if my suggestion of positive lifestyle choices was unsolicited. I know it can be hard to grapple with idiocy, but we are in the midst of an idiocy epidemic, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't contribute to further idiocy by voicing your opinions.
Congratulations on your weight loss.
>> ^CaptainPlanet:
also, please nobody assault anyone for suggesting positive lifestyle choices, Even if those suggestions are unsolicited.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

Just a few comments here.

I guess it's necessary to remind the participants in this debate that I am not defending obesity as normal or non-problematic; what I am doing is criticising the letter-writer's behaviour and commending the way it was called out as an example (and not as a personal attack on the writer; anonymity, remember?)

@SDGundamX You're right, we do disagree once again. Comparing sn being pressured into being unhealthily skinny and sn drink-driving or sexually harassing others is absurd, no need to belabour that point. The target of criticism in the model's case should be the fashion industry (and that of women's magazines, etc) which idolises such unhealthiness, not a cog in the system (who probably has enough trouble with it already). It's different if you are a personal friend to that person, as @Thumper thoughtfully pointed out above. Otherwise, it's a bit like criticising an Afghanistan vet for fighting an unjust war (once again, possible if you are that person's friend/family). As for it being a "private" email, I already argued amply as to why that doesn't fly.

@scannex Perhaps there was a misunderstanding between us, I don't know. What seems clear to me is that one must consider the difference between having a behavioural problem and exhibiting the behaviour of that problem. Example: alcoholism is a behavioural problem, the behaviour being excessive drinking. The difference of course is that some behavioural problems result in a constant visual marker (e.g. being fat), and that that marker does not always point back to a behavioural problem (e.g. genetics, mental health problems, etc), therefore assumptions should not be made. Moreover, That marker does not induce nor even condone the behavioural problem. Hope that clears things up.

@ReverendTed Hello there late comer! See the above for my response to your comment.

>> ^entr0py:

>> ^Fairbs:
I think she got trolled.

I was going to agree, but does it count as trolling when you just write to an individual privately? Remember the anchor the one who made it public. I think it's just regular-ass harassment.


It was actually the husband that sent her the email. I know, I just blew your mind.

Well said. You couldn't possibly be the bmacs I'm playing words with friends with right now, could you? >> ^bmacs27:

The ultimate issue is "is it a choice?" Homosexuality is not considered a "choice" and thus is not considered "fair game" for criticism. Similarly a lot of data is showing that metabolic set points are not a "choice" or at least they're determined at a young age. Granted, you could starve yourself and exercise into losing weight, but the success rates long term are very low. People who try generally get depressed because they are forcing their body to operate in a way it doesn't want to simply to conform to social norms. The parallels with homosexuality continue. I mean, gay people could act straight. They just don't want to. Further, there is little data to suggest health issues associated with weight once you control for other lifestyle choices (exercise, diet, smoking, etc). Many people exercise everyday, eat a healthy diet, lead healthy lives, and are just fat. Honestly, it's the last bastion of socially accepted prejudice.

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