Negligent Homicide. This type of cause has already been tried in court. There are numerous studies that show prayer does nothing, you can do them too. When prayer does work it is strictly coincidence. If prayer has any effect on people it is strictly psychological.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligent_homicide

Maybe they can pray for brains..

"To keep the rest of her foot... because that's all she got." rofl

Is there some kind of time delay before god hears your prayers and acts on them?

So if this "kind" god of yours is going to listen to your prayers, why would he make this happen to her in the first place? I mean it's all part of his plan right?

She lost part of her other leg 20 years ago, she's obviously got serious health issues, she's had heart attacks and now is losing her other foot! Since her family are such believers I assume they've been praying for her health for at least twenty years. I think you've got your answer folks.

Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results; isn't that one of the definitions of insanity?

Definitely evolution in action here... *eia

Adding video to channels (Eia) - requested by Sarzy.

Dood, how stoopid are you? Do you realize how freakin' busy that guy is?!

>> ^jimnms:

Is there some kind of time delay before god hears your prayers and acts on them?

>> ^spaceman:

Dood, how stoopid are you? Do you realize how freakin' busy that guy is?!


Fuck, if he can create the entire universe in 7 days, how freaking hard can it be to answer a prayer in a timely manner?

So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).

Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.

That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

>> ^Trancecoach:

So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).


I call bullshit

as sumone said the only time praying helps is when u tell sumone that people are giving a shit about them and u end up with posative phycalogical effects , and placebo effect.

the same thing would happen if u told an ill person that people were thinking about them and wanted them to get better.


as for this video WTF BBQ lol

>> ^Trancecoach:

So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).


Link to study, please?

If they pray and she gets better they will say it was the Power of Prayer. If it doesn't work then they come back with "It was her time." Win Win!

Oh, but personal religious belief is fine! I mean what's the harm?

prayer has always baffled me.
if god has a perfect plan, then prayer is an insult to that perfect plan, and praying won't change it.
if prayer can change god's mind, then god has no perfect plan, and is probably not omniscient.
if god has a perfect plan, won't change it, but demands prayer anyways, then god is a sick sadist.

This is why someone needs to come up with a belief test and if you score high, you win a prize!

The prize is to be deemed mentally unfit and you lose your right to vote, drive, have children and some other things which could only make the world a better place. Or at least get a law in place that allows doctors to tell religious nutjobs to go fuck themselves sideways with a razorblade and do the procedure without being liable for a lawsuit.

Placebo effect on mice, Westy?
You must be joking!
Lolololol

>> ^westy:

>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

I call bullshit
as sumone said the only time praying helps is when u tell sumone that people are giving a shit about them and u end up with posative phycalogical effects , and placebo effect.
the same thing would happen if u told an ill person that people were thinking about them and wanted them to get better.

as for this video WTF BBQ lol

Agreed. Link please.>> ^hpqp:

>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

Link to study, please?

Grad, Bernard. "Paranormal Healing and Life Energy." American Society for Psychical Research Newsletter 7 (1981).

——. "Some Biological Effects of the 'Laying on of Hands': A Review of Experiments with Animals and Plants." Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 59 (1965).

——. "A Telekinetic Effect on Plant Growth." International Journal of Parapsychology 3 (1961); 5 (1963).

Grad, Bernard, Remi J. Cadoret, and G. I. Paul. "The Influence of an Unorthodox Method of Treatment on Wound Healing in Mice." International Journal of Parapsychology 3, no. 2 (1961).


>> ^hpqp:

>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

Link to study, please?

I've seen loads of different studies on prayer with a myriad of outcomes which I think gives even more support to the fact that it really doesn't have any consistent, let alone significant, real world effects.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficacy_of_prayer

"They kept praying through 5 more heart-attacks."

Uh, don't this assholes get it? God wants this bitch DEAD!

And oh please bringing up Bernard Grad... he's a fucking quack.

I wouldn't call his self-aggrandizing and delusional bullshit "studies."

Sad. From where I stand, as a christian, these kinds of people do infinitely more damage than any critics like Hitchens and Dawkins could ever dream of. They are also infinitely more offensive to me, and I wish more people would publicly stand up and denounce this kind of thing.

If you are sick, then go and get help from a doctor. By all means pray as well, but do both. Refusing to go to the doctor because you prayed is like starving to death in a house full of food while you pray for help with your hunger. And as was said up thread, if you so deeply believe God is planning a miracle, how do you expect a mere mortal doctor to stop him? Surely if the leg is amputated you can still pray for it to be restored. Sorry, but being hysterical and illogical over your daughter's illness is NOT the same as having a grounded faith.

Yeah, if the mice believe that "medicine" is going to help them, then it will work.....

What I want to know is how they convinced the mice they were sick to begin with in order for the placebo affect to work.

>> ^Trancecoach:

Placebo effect on mice, Westy?
You must be joking!
Lolololol
>> ^westy:
>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

I call bullshit
as sumone said the only time praying helps is when u tell sumone that people are giving a shit about them and u end up with posative phycalogical effects , and placebo effect.
the same thing would happen if u told an ill person that people were thinking about them and wanted them to get better.

as for this video WTF BBQ lol

At least it's not going to be like that episode of Babylon 5 where they do surgery on a child and the parents kill the child because their religion says their people lose their souls if they're operated upon. Just let them pray it away and we'll all learn a lesson on what good that did.

Word. Except in the final case, where to my mind he'd be an egomaniacal douchebag, but not a sadist.
>> ^sometimes:

if god has a perfect plan, then prayer is an insult to that perfect plan, and praying won't change it.
if prayer can change god's mind, then god has no perfect plan, and is probably not omniscient.
if god has a perfect plan, won't change it, but demands prayer anyways, then god is a sick sadist.

God would probably have time to perform the odd miracle if he didn't spend the entire time answering the phone. Prayer is just a way to make you feel like you're doing something when you're really doing nothing. Sometimes it appears to work, alleluia praise the lord, sometimes it doesn't, why hast thou forsaken me... Either way natural selection is the only consistent winner, I feel a Darwin award in the works here.

@Duckman33, you've got "angela dwight" in the tags but her name is Angela Wright. Dwight Wright is the husband.

>> ^xxovercastxx:

@<a rel="nofollow" href="http://duckman33.videosift.com" title="member since January 10th, 2008" class="profilelink"><strong style="color: rgb(43, 104, 238);">Duckman33, you've got "angela dwight" in the tags but her name is Angela Wright. Dwight Wright is the husband.


I just copy/pasted them from youtube, didn't even pay attention.

I don't mind religious folks dying because they refused medical treatment, one less nutjob in the world.

Prayers aren't signatures on a petition. If the first one doesn't get the job done, then a million of them won't either.

>> ^Trancecoach:

Placebo effect on mice, Westy?
You must be joking!
Lolololol
>> ^westy:
>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

I call bullshit
as sumone said the only time praying helps is when u tell sumone that people are giving a shit about them and u end up with posative phycalogical effects , and placebo effect.
the same thing would happen if u told an ill person that people were thinking about them and wanted them to get better.

as for this video WTF BBQ lol



I stoped talking about mice and the study after i typed "I call Bull shit"

you took what i said out of context , i was restating the realty of things on humans and just highlighting what sumone else had alredy said , the fact that you were talking about mice is not evan relivent.

Fact is there have been so manny studies and its allso the sort of thing that if it worked you would have plenty of evidence evan before you did a study.

I'm going to pretend that made sense to me.

>> ^westy:

>> ^Trancecoach:
Placebo effect on mice, Westy?
You must be joking!
Lolololol
>> ^westy:
>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

I call bullshit
as sumone said the only time praying helps is when u tell sumone that people are giving a shit about them and u end up with posative phycalogical effects , and placebo effect.
the same thing would happen if u told an ill person that people were thinking about them and wanted them to get better.

as for this video WTF BBQ lol


I stoped talking about mice and the study after i typed "I call Bull shit"
you took what i said out of context , i was restating the realty of things on humans and just highlighting what sumone else had alredy said , the fact that you were talking about mice is not evan relivent.
Fact is there have been so manny studies and its allso the sort of thing that if it worked you would have plenty of evidence evan before you did a study.

You seem to be doing a lot of pretending. Mr. Trancecoach....>> ^Trancecoach:

I'm going to pretend that made sense to me.
>> ^westy:
>> ^Trancecoach:
Placebo effect on mice, Westy?
You must be joking!
Lolololol
>> ^westy:
>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

I call bullshit
as sumone said the only time praying helps is when u tell sumone that people are giving a shit about them and u end up with posative phycalogical effects , and placebo effect.
the same thing would happen if u told an ill person that people were thinking about them and wanted them to get better.

as for this video WTF BBQ lol


I stoped talking about mice and the study after i typed "I call Bull shit"
you took what i said out of context , i was restating the realty of things on humans and just highlighting what sumone else had alredy said , the fact that you were talking about mice is not evan relivent.
Fact is there have been so manny studies and its allso the sort of thing that if it worked you would have plenty of evidence evan before you did a study.

How do you mean?

>> ^LooiXIV:

You seem to be doing a lot of pretending. Mr. Trancecoach....>>

maybe god's plan is that you'll pray if you need something... like some sort of super-butler.

>> ^sometimes:

prayer has always baffled me.
if god has a perfect plan, then prayer is an insult to that perfect plan, and praying won't change it.
if prayer can change god's mind, then god has no perfect plan, and is probably not omniscient.
if god has a perfect plan, won't change it, but demands prayer anyways, then god is a sick sadist.

sweet citations... though I was surprized that you didn't cite his 1987 review article in the 'Journal for the North American Society for Bullshitting People'


>> ^Trancecoach:

Grad, Bernard. "Paranormal Healing and Life Energy." American Society for Psychical Research Newsletter 7 (1981).
——. "Some Biological Effects of the 'Laying on of Hands': A Review of Experiments with Animals and Plants." Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 59 (1965).
——. "A Telekinetic Effect on Plant Growth." International Journal of Parapsychology 3 (1961); 5 (1963).
Grad, Bernard, Remi J. Cadoret, and G. I. Paul. "The Influence of an Unorthodox Method of Treatment on Wound Healing in Mice." International Journal of Parapsychology 3, no. 2 (1961).

>>

Goddammit, that makes me rage!

>> ^Sketch:

Oh, but personal religious belief is fine! I mean what's the harm?

First off, I don't see why prayer has to conflict with modern medicine. If I were Christian and this were happening in my family, I'd say God had already answered my prayers--the fact that modern medicine exists and can help prolong the life of someone who is so sick would seem like a miracle to me and I'd be jumping at the chance to use it.

Second, I think it's impossible to scientifically study the efficacy of prayer. The studies that have been done on prayer assume that prayer works like some kind of vending machine--prayers go in, miracles come out; prayers go in, miracles come out. They assume that all prayers have the same measurable effect and that all prayers are answered equally. I don't know of any religion that makes those kind of claims, so it seems like the research studies are pointless to being with.

Also, intercessory prayer (praying for others) is only a small component of prayer in religious contexts. For an example of the wide variety of prayer in a Christian context, see this fascinating book by Georgia Harkness. I recommend Chapter's 1 and 4 since they are the most relevant to the discussion of healing prayer and what it really means for "prayers to be answered."

>> ^jimnms:

Is there some kind of time delay before god hears your prayers and acts on them?


Yes. God uses a 56k modem. Do you know how long it takes for a prayer to get to heaven by 56k modem?!

I used to believe in spiritual stuff. I would read things like scientists associated with the Institute of Noetic Sciences doing a joint study with mainstream scientists around 2004 in which both teams separately used the exact same equipment and procedures, but came up with results that supported their separate paradigms.

The Institute of Noetic Sciences folks thus concluded that reality literally conforms to your paradigm or something, and that we have to re-examine hundreds of years of science.

Now that I have more intellectual experience, I believe more sober-minded scientists will tell you that there are innumerable ways to unknowingly botch your study if you care about the outcome, and that's one of the reasons science is so notoriously difficult to do right.
>> ^Trancecoach:

Grad, Bernard. "Paranormal Healing and Life Energy." American Society for Psychical Research Newsletter 7 (1981).
——. "Some Biological Effects of the 'Laying on of Hands': A Review of Experiments with Animals and Plants." Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research 59 (1965).
——. "A Telekinetic Effect on Plant Growth." International Journal of Parapsychology 3 (1961); 5 (1963).
Grad, Bernard, Remi J. Cadoret, and G. I. Paul. "The Influence of an Unorthodox Method of Treatment on Wound Healing in Mice." International Journal of Parapsychology 3, no. 2 (1961).

>> ^hpqp:
>> ^Trancecoach:
So there's actually been some hard data collected on the effects of prayer on healing. The effects are extremely modest (albeit statistically significant).
Dr. Bernard Grad worked with a self-proclaimed healer, Oskar Estabany, and observed that Estebany could "psychically" (i.e., prayer-at-a-distance) inhibit the damage caused by saline to red blood cells, thereby decreasing the healing time of wounds in mice, as compared to a control group of mice for whose healing was not prayed.
That said, I think this family needs to get the hint... unless of course the man's right, and the woman's foot IS all she has (and judging by her family, he might be right).

Link to study, please?

There's a joke I feel is appropriate:

A very religious man learns of a flood approaching his home. Putting his faith in God to protect him, he stays put.
As the waters reach his stoop, a National Guard truck arrives and they call out to him. He waves them off, putting his faith in God to deliver him from harm.
The man retreats to the second floor as the waters rise. Rescuers in a boat call out to him, but he waves them off, putting his faith in God to save him.
The flood swells, and with the water lapping at his feet on the roof of his house, he stubbornly waves away a helicopter that lowers a rope.
An hour later, the man drowns.
Admitted into heaven, he confronts God: "Why didn't you save me, your faithful follower?"
The omniscient reply: "I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter - what more did you want?"

How on earth can we have such Medieval practices going on in the 21st century? Pray that she doesn't have to loose her 'other' foot? Pray she doesn't have a sixth heart attack? These people are slowly killing her because they believe eroneously that god will save her.

There is some power in belief, mostly psychologically, but this kind of belief is simply stupidity. Pray for her to recover quickly. Pray for her surgery to go well. Pray for her health. Praying that god will fix her because doctor's surely cant is outright asinine. And you know what is worse? When she dies from lack of actual care, they will simply state 'God must have wanted her. It was her time.'

/facepalm

>> ^ReverendTed:

There's a joke I feel is appropriate:
A very religious man learns of a flood approaching his home. Putting his faith in God to protect him, he stays put.
As the waters reach his stoop, a National Guard truck arrives and they call out to him. He waves them off, putting his faith in God to deliver him from harm.
The man retreats to the second floor as the waters rise. Rescuers in a boat call out to him, but he waves them off, putting his faith in God to save him.
The flood swells, and with the water lapping at his feet on the roof of his house, he stubbornly waves away a helicopter that lowers a rope.
An hour later, the man drowns.
Admitted into heaven, he confronts God: "Why didn't you save me, your faithful follower?"
The omniscient reply: "I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter - what more did you want?"

Fixed it for you.