Silence on the Power Point limitation?

I had misread the new limitation on power point accumulation and thought that power points were going to be better than before. Instead, earning power points from stellar performance is now severely limited. But nobody is talking about it. So I figured, well, nobody cares. But then I discovered someone else had misread the limitation. So maybe the silence is because more than just us two read it wrong? Do we all know that we can no longer earn power points in excess of the number of years we've been on the Sift? [edit] That noobs are limited to a maximum one power point for 1 year, 364 days, regardless of performance? [edit edit] Except they can buy more points....
seltar says...

Should probably use data that shows performance instead. Votes gotten, videos sifted, or something along those lines.

Making the power points scarse in general seems like it'll just create less activity, so I'm not sure I understand why this choice was made either.

Shepppard says...

Honestly, I don't think it much matters. I'm a 5 year vet, and my last power point used was 5 days ago, I'm currently sitting at 1 power point.

All the change really means is that you should technically use your points more. Instead of hoarding 5 points spend one of your 2 and then get a comment upvoted to get back to 2.

If anything, this should increase the amount of activity you guys are doing because of the limit, meaning you should always leave at least one space open.

Now, it's been a while since I read the changes, for all I know you don't get power points like you used to, but even if that's the case and it's only a recharge at this point, all that means is spend your points so that they can recharge.

bareboards2 says...

@Shepppard, if you have been on the Sift for less than two years, and you hit two Top 15s quickly and a #1 vid overnight... you get one point.

It's fine if you have been around for a long time -- you are absolutely right that there is no benefit to hoarding points, which is a great result from this change.

But if you are a noob? Or you have a run of good luck/skill?

--Although now that I re-read your comment, maybe you don't know how power points work now. If you have been on the site for less than two years, the MAXIMUM number of power points at ANY ONE TIME is one point. Ever. So you can't even promote your own vids if you want. For two full years.

If you've been around for awhile, this is no big whoop. But for noobs? Well, that is what this sift talk post is about.

bareboards2 says...

You can earn a power point for each full year on the sift. Been here four years? You can earn 4 power points. Been here six years? You can earn 6 power points. Etc etc. You can buy more, you can't earn more.

dystopianfuturetoday said:

So >2 year users now have a max of 5 total pts and <2 year users have a max of 1 total pt? Is that the change?

RadHazG says...

Speaking from personal experience as one who only just recently got silver, I have a stockpile of points not because I intended to do so, but because there wasn't anything much I could do with them besides promote my own video's (not something I do often). It makes a kind of sense to limit the new folks like this as there isn't much they can do with the points anyway and it keeps them from going nuts with the points they accumulate in the meantime the instant they get to use them on other things. I do think that a max of 1 for each year is a bit stiff though. 2 per year or something? At least something that scales slightly more?

enoch says...

i never promote my own vids.
i prefer to promote another sifters submission.
but i have been known on occasion to whore myself if i came across something i truly found unique.
guess thats why all this power point rabble is news to me.

Jinx says...

Instead of a hard limit you could allow a user to excede it, but then have any points above that limit decay over x days. That way if a new user finds themselves with a couple of videos in the top15 and maybe a highly rated comment then they at least have the opportunity to promote some more of their videos.

On hoarding...well I've "hoarded" 21 powerpoints out of lack of things to do with them. Thats not a complaint really, I just think there is enough restriction on new sifters without this cap. I also think the existing powers restriction makes more sense, you are rewarded for sifting videos and not just for being here for a few years.

oritteropo says...

Since I spend them as fast as I get them, I really had no idea that it was possible to amass more than two points in v4.2 without buying them.

I think I only managed to get 2 a handful of times (except when charter).

I don't think this will affect n00b's at all, since by definition they are new and didn't know the old system.

dag says...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Allow me to jump in, now that I've had two cups of coffee. Zing!

The limitation by years of Sift service was actually an idea from a member. We liked it because it values long-term Sifters who really know their way around and prevents hoarding of points that would give some members an inordinate amount of power over the content.

nock says...

Doesn't this change allow some members to have "an inordinate amount of power over the content" by restricting new members' power points? What I've always liked about VS is its egalitarian nature; 1 vote = 1 vote no matter who it came from, newbie or otherwise. If we're saying we value older members more than more recent members, why not have votes counted based on number of years of membership? e.g. 1 year = 1 vote, 2 years = 2 votes, etc. I suspect that this change would not be well received, so why the discrepancy in power points?

dag said:

Quote hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Allow me to jump in, now that I've had two cups of coffee. Zing!

The limitation by years of Sift service was actually an idea from a member. We liked it because it values long-term Sifters who really know their way around and prevents hoarding of points that would give some members an inordinate amount of power over the content.

mintbbb says...

I can understand that some people will be upset because there will be a limit of how many promotes one can fire up. But, with the new promotes, is that really that much of a factor?

I do love having a video of my being promoted, but when it happened, it was like 'OMG! Thank you! Somebody really liked that video!' I felt like It didn't happen because my video didn't sift and went to pq. It didn't happen in return of me promoting somebody else's video. It didn't happen because I am a nice person.

I know people like to work together and get all this promoting and working together - thing going on. I know lots of nice people deserve to have success in VS. I know I tend to vote on some people's videos because they vote on mine. But that's still fine. I come online in the morning, look for certain submissions and vote on them, unless they are too weird for me, submit a buch of stuff and go on my merry way. I rarely promote (and I do not want to tell howe many power points I still have). You might think I am am b**ch for not promoting and upvoting enough. But as nice as VS is, I do not want it to take over my life. I already had EQ, WOW and almost SWTOR do that.. Changes might seem bad, but they happen.

Maybe I am the b**ch queen of VS, but I am a loner. I appreciate every vote, quality and promote, and I never seem to return the favor enough. And I take the downvotes personally. But I have gotten here without asking for help. I appreciate it, but am not asking for it. There are times when I just get teary eyed because someboidy promoted a vidoe, or made a nice comment..

Again, thanks for all the votes. I will try to do better at returning the favor, at some point. When I am better and less depressed and happier. I still love VS.

PlayhousePals says...

I guess I'm considered a NOOB since I haven't even been here a year yet so this power point change has been quite perplexing for me. To be honest, I do feel a bit cheated now. If I hadn't upgraded to charter [which ups my total to two PP's], I would be limited to ONE PP only for the next year and three months. Though I rarely promote my own videos, under the new rules I wouldn't be able to do that at all without the charter status. If my unsifted video queue is full I wouldn't be able to use two points for an "extra" submission either. I love using my PP's to quality and promote other sifters videos* and I do so frequently. This new system severely limits my opportunity to spread the love.

As it stands now, any power point bonuses "earned" for making the top 15, achieving a number one video or an applauded comment are NOT credited at all if you are currently at your limit. What is the benefit/reward of a bonus system then? It seems to me that earned rewards should be considered exempt. Though certainly not the end of the world, it just doesn't seem fair to those who actually work at achieving success.

[* edit: I should clarify that I only promote/quality videos "I" feel are actually worth it. And, as expected, I actually watch ALL of the videos I vote on. No behind the scenes shenanigans here]

bareboards2 says...

I had no idea that there were so many hoarded points!!!

Hey, @dag, can some of these low starred Sifters gift their power points to someone who then can turn around and promote their stuff?

Dang, @Drax -- how the heck did you get 66 power points???!!!

eric3579 says...

I always thought promotes were to be used to promote quality content and not just to get videos sifted. Thats seems like a bad idea and defeats the idea of focusing on quality not quantity.

bareboards2 said:

Hey, @dag, can some of these low starred Sifters gift their power points to someone who then can turn around and promote their stuff?

bareboards2 says...

Um, what??? I am not advocating promoting any vid, I am talking about promoting good vids. If they aren't sifted yet, that doesn't mean they aren't quality.

My point was that noobs who are prevented from promoting their own stuff can work around the system by working cooperatively with other Sifters. It's awkward and clunky, but doable.

eric3579 said:

I always thought promotes were to be used to promote quality content and not just to get videos sifted. Thats seems like a bad idea and defeats the idea of focusing on quality not quantity.

eric3579 says...

Sorry, my bad

bareboards2 said:

Um, what??? I am not advocating promoting any vid, I am talking about promoting good vids. If they aren't sifted yet, that doesn't mean they aren't quality.

My point was that noobs who are prevented from promoting their own stuff can work around the system by working cooperatively with other Sifters. It's awkward and clunky, but doable.

dag says...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

But see - I think it is an ordinate amount of power. If you have been here six years- more than likely you know the ropes and how things function here and should therefore have more power to change things than someone who has been here for less time.

nock said:

Doesn't this change allow some members to have "an inordinate amount of power over the content" by restricting new members' power points? What I've always liked about VS is its egalitarian nature; 1 vote = 1 vote no matter who it came from, newbie or otherwise. If we're saying we value older members more than more recent members, why not have votes counted based on number of years of membership? e.g. 1 year = 1 vote, 2 years = 2 votes, etc. I suspect that this change would not be well received, so why the discrepancy in power points?

Drax says...

Applauded comments.

bareboards2 said:

I had no idea that there were so many hoarded points!!!

Hey, @dag, can some of these low starred Sifters gift their power points to someone who then can turn around and promote their stuff?

Dang, @Drax -- how the heck did you get 66 power points???!!!

grinter says...

...I never had all that many power points... usually 13 or so, but I like hoarding them... ..and dressing them up in doll's clothing.. and listening to them tell me stories.
Now you want to take my points from me? I don't think they are going to like that.

seltar says...

@dag you don't need 6 years to learn the ropes on videosift.

Right now, certain people can't even frontpage stuff, no matter how important it is to them.

Power functions should be available based on your activity here, which they already are. If you must have a limitation, at least make it something fair.

If you have the ability to frontpage (based on star status), you should also have the ability to acquire the number of power points that action requires.

dag says...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I hear you. It's a point well made. The ability to frontpage is a very big deal in my opinion though, and not something that a beginner should be able to do.

seltar said:

@dag you don't need 6 years to learn the ropes on videosift.

Right now, certain people can't even frontpage stuff, no matter how important it is to them.

Power functions should be available based on your activity here, which they already are. If you must have a limitation, at least make it something fair.

If you have the ability to frontpage (based on star status), you should also have the ability to acquire the number of power points that action requires.

lucky760 says...

Just for everyone's edification, and without naming any names, the top three hoarders have 434, 247, and 114 Power Points at the moment. After them, the next few dozen hoarders have on average several dozen points apiece.

seltar says...

Totally agree that frontpaging is a big deal, and should be hard to obtain.
But silver / gold users aren't exactly beginners. By getting to the level where you're allowed to frontpage, you've proven yourself a valid member of the community, imo.

dag said:

Quote hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I hear you. It's a point well made. The ability to frontpage is a very big deal in my opinion though, and not something that a beginner should be able to do.

dag says...

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I guess you could say there are two types of authority awarded - performance based and also a kind of "tenure". There have been many excellent Sifters who have rocketed to gold in mere weeks, with great enthusiasm, and I think that's great. But Videosift is becoming, increasingly, sort of a complex place with a fair bit of nuance to how things are done.

As an example - I've had to return a couple of * discusses in just the past few weeks because the Sifter, no fault to them, thought this was the way to award great discussions.

Maybe the rules are too complex- maybe, but we're 7 years old now, and I kind of like that it takes a while to learn the ropes.

seltar said:

Totally agree that frontpaging is a big deal, and should be hard to obtain.
But silver / gold users aren't exactly beginners. By getting to the level where you're allowed to frontpage, you've proven yourself a valid member of the community, imo.

seltar says...

@dag Don't get me wrong, I like most of the system on the sift. And I agree it should take a while to get used to all the nooks and crannies.

I just feel like limiting powerpoints to years active seems like a high threshold.. Maybe months would be better?

But then again, I don't see why limiting power points is a good idea in the first place, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about. I still feel your star level is more than enough to judge how much power you can have. Adding limits on power points on top of that just seems a bit too much.

Also, @lucky760 - is it bad that some people are "collecting" power points? if so, maybe add some sort of expiration dates to the points? and why is it bad?

pumkinandstorm says...

I also don't understand why power points are being limited. If someone is posting quality videos that are making top 15 or #1, I think they should be rewarded for their efforts regardless of how many power points they have already accumulated. I'm "new" here but feel that I've spent more "time" on the site than people that have been here for many years. Now I'm entitled to only ONE power point at a time? That doesn't seem right. I am very generous with my power points. After only 8 months I already have my level 26 assister badge and am #6 on that badge list so I am obviously not abusing my points in any way. I won't be able to help people like before and that really bothers me. What DOES it matter how many points a person is hoarding? If they have been earned from posting great videos and great comments, a person should feel free to use them (or not use them) as they wish...

bareboards2 says...

@dag said "If you have been here six years- more than likely you know the ropes and how things function here and should therefore have more power to change things than someone who has been here for less time."

Change what, dag? What can a new person to the Sift change?

As for the Sift now having more nuance than before, I say phooie on that. I still remember how completely flummoxed I was by all the bells and whistles and promotes and power points and it was all so overwhelming, I lurked for years.

In my opinion, this limitation feels like a punishment for success. Somebody charges in, susses things out quickly, and starts posting quality videos? How is that a problem?

I've seen this before -- sifters who can't get a video into the Top 15 resenting the success of others. Instead of working on their skills to figure out what OTHER SIFTERS WANT, they grouse. I see this limitation as the ultimate grouse against success.

I also know it is a fact that success breeds success, and it can be hard to get noticed. Creating the Talent Scout badge should obviate that -- if a Sifter helps noobs, they will get rewarded for it (dang, where was that badge when I was heavy into my helping newcomer phase?)

I guess I am too much an American -- we love our capitalist system where efforts are rewarded, for the most part. A slogging along, almost communist system grates -- two years before you can earn something. Dang. Although the flip to this is -- if you have real, honest to god money, you can buy your way into power points. Which means this new system is the opposite of egalitarian.

The world is not a dull gray place where everyone is the same. @Drax with his silver tongue? Good lord, that is amazing. @punkinandstorm with her deep reserves of charm and smarts who figured this site out in record time, on top of a great eye for an interesting vid? @eric3579 who has a beautifully tuned sense of quality and works hard to maintain the excellence? @mintbbb who also can spot a winner vid at 25 paces? @kymbos, who delights me with his point of view? @radx who privately keeps me informed on the most amazing worldwide events that otherwise I wouldn't hear about?

Everyone brings something to the table here, in this rich tapestry that is the Sift. I love it here. Mostly.

But I get back to my first question -- how can a noob "change" anything? What are they changing?

Shepppard says...

@bareboards2

Off hand, one of the things I can think of is the fact that since promoted videos are now reserved to 3 slots, not being able to frivolously promote every one of your videos would be a start.

I like the idea of "start everyone off at two", but I would like to point out that climbing the sift can be done in record time these days. Back in the day, the process of even being able to get a promote function could literally take a year. (Or, like, 3, in my case). Recently we've had a couple people get to that point within a few months. Now, good on them, they figured out that posting cat videos will get them published faster.

On the same token, you've said

"I've seen this before -- sifters who can't get a video into the Top 15 resenting the success of others. Instead of working on their skills to figure out what OTHER SIFTERS WANT,"

Now, I really dislike that statement. The reason i'm still at a gold star even though I've been around for 5 years is because I DON'T pander to what everybody else wants. I post the videos that I like, and that I think should be shown to the community. So, effectively what you've said is because I don't post a cat video every week, I'm less of an influence on the site because I'm still only at a star badge rather than a diamond.

I actually really like the fact that dag and lucky have tried this system out. I actually feel appreciated for the fact that I've stuck around the site for 5 years and I've tweaked the settings, setting up proper tags, etc. And not punished for only adding contributions I myself deem worthy.

That's not to say that there's no merit to the cat videos everyone posts now and again, but the fact that I choose not to play the system like that shouldn't be a detriment to me

Jinx says...

I didn't realise there was a problem with <2yr old sifters misusing the few powers they have. Apart from pumkinandstorm obviously. SHE MUST BE STOPPED.
A quick look at some of the banned users suggests that there isn't exactly much of a correlation between sift "age" and good behaviour either.

I mean is this primarily about limiting new users, or preventing hording/making buying points more attractive? If its the former I'm not sure its necessary, and if its the latter then I think there are better ways of doing it without putting too much restriction on the new guys.

bareboards2 says...

@Shepppard, oh, you did misconstrue me!

I was talking about those folks who RESENT those who succeed. I have no idea if you resent success or not. (Also, this post isn't about the promote system design -- that is well covered elsewhere. This Sift Talk is just about power point limitations on noobs.)

And how does someone else's success act as a "detriment" to you? You aren't diminished if someone makes crown, are you?

Not everyone wants to have the obvious trappings of success around here. I mean, look at what we have discovered about those who gain pleasure from hoarding points. Nobody even knows they have them, but they have their secret reward pleasure from playing this game called Videosift. I LOVE THAT. Over four hundred power points? Are you kidding me? Whoever that is has Won the Sift, as far as I am concerned. And we don't even know who it is!

And @probie. I love probie. Been around forever. Clearly absolutely refuses to post a vid and lose his/her Big Red P. Isn't that great? S/he found a way to be unique in this soup of personalities. Good!

I'm with you -- I only post stuff I like. I have a HUGE pqueue, full of stuff I adore that no one else does. It pleases me to have some of that stuff on the Sift -- for historical reasons, for my own personal pleasure.

I wasn't too pleased at having my ability to earn power points limited to the number of years I have been "officially" on the Sift (I should be getting six power points, but that's another amusing story about computer noob failure on my part.) I was willing to live with it, and just work hard at spending the points I earned so I would always get my "pay."

But then I started to realize how this felt like ... well, punishment for success for new people. A conscious dampening of their involvement. It just feels.... wrong and bad for the Sift in the long run. New blood is what is going to keep this place going, right?

And I keep coming back to what @dag said -- what power do noobs have to change anything around here? Anything they do MUST have the support of a significant number of fellow Sifters. They can't do anything without the support and friendship and/or admiration of other Sifters. How is that bad for the Sift?

Besides, now that I know about our hidden community of secret Hoarders.... their pleasure has just been cut off completely. No more points for them. And that makes me sad. Now that I know about it.

mintbbb says...

Ok, not a huge surprise, yes, I have the 434 power points. I do not like to be called a 'hoarder'. It isn't like I gather them for some evil purpose (though guys, if you give me a car for one day reaching 5000 star points (http://videosift.com/talk/MintBBB-and-Galaxy#comment-1322775), I will give up those power points!

They just pile up, and since I am not active at promoting and/or qualitying (sorry), they just .. piled up! BUt I feel like I really, really want to spend time and find some gems before I promote. And since I still haven't made time to dig through most people's pqueues, I never used too many. And now, I feel like I don't want to bump anybody's promoted video off the list of 3, just because I could.

I think the promote system needs to be tweaked yes.. I haven't clicked on too many of the promoted videos because of lack of info (description, submitter..), and they do not look to appealing.

I do think people should have more than just a few power points if they have earned more. Maybe just put a daily limit? One can only promote and/or quality x videos per day. Let people get their power point rewards. I know the system of awarding power points for Top15 and Gold Ones is relatively new. There was a time were there were no badges.. there were even less rewarding times before my time. But rewards are good. People like rewards. Having Sifty say 'XXXXXX has made it into the Top 15 New Videos listing. Congratulations on your achievement. For your contribution you have been awarded 1 Power Point.' and then finding out you didn't ACTUALLY get the power point is a big let down.

Let people have power points, just limit the daily use, maybe that could be based on years active X 2 ..

Just please, do NOT call me a hoarder!

BoneRemake says...

You had absolutely no reason to explain yourself. why draw attention to you being the one with 400+ PP. No one said it was you but then you burst that bubble yourself. No one called you a hoarder. Why would you take such an innocuous phrase and make it personal.

I say you make yourself feel better and give every one of your buddies 20 each. Than they can give their buddies five each. Now you are not a hoarder in the eyes of everyone else. You can feel better and sleep well.

mintbbb says...

Thanks, I knew I could always count on you being a jerk Thanks for not letting me down!

BoneRemake said:

You had absolutely no reason to explain yourself. why draw attention to you being the one with 400+ PP. No one said it was you but then you burst that bubble yourself. No one called you a hoarder. Why would you take such an innocuous phrase and make it personal.

I say you make yourself feel better and give every one of your buddies 20 each. Than they can give their buddies five each. Now you are not a hoarder in the eyes of everyone else. You can feel better and sleep well.

Hybrid says...

I'd be happy with everything becoming more expensive to keep the number of promotes and qualities in check. So that promotes and qualities become 2 power points (self-promoting, could be 3). That way you have to "earn" the right to promote by submitting something successful to the sift first (rather than relying on recharge points).

kymbos says...

'Hoarding' powerpoints is not a problem that requires a solution. It's not like we have a small market for powerpoints, and we're seeing the development of a Rupert Murdoch with too much market share.

I think you've fixed a problem that doesn't exist, and in the process limited the function of newer Sifters who may have far more interest in using functions than some of us older Sifters (like me).

On an unrelated note, I don't dig the new promote system. On that issue, I like your old stuff better than your new stuff.

bareboards2 says...

Here is a side effect of the limitation on power points, @dag.... Now I am promoting more than I have in a long time. Because if I don't get rid of my power points, I won't get my "earnings."

Isn't that an interesting unintended consequence of the limitation idea?

I am SUCH a lab rat, scurrying around, trying to maximize my pellets. Sigh.

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